478: Cracking the Code to Maximize Happiness By Finding Meaning and Purpose in Retirement with Jordan Grumet, MD

[INTERVIEW]

Casey Weade: Purpose can be a bit overwhelming as you step into this next phase of your life. Today, we're going to work with Dr. Jordan Grumet to help you unlock meaning, maximize happiness, and leave a lasting legacy. Hey, I'm Casey Weade. And welcome to the podcast, where it is my mission to deliver clarity in purpose and elevate meaning in your life. And we do this week in and week out with world-class guests like you're going to have the opportunity to engage with today as we also bring you trending subjects on finance, both financial and non-financial week in and week out, every single Friday. Today, we are with Dr. Jordan Grumet. We're going to be giving away his book.

So, make sure you stick around to get a copy of his new book and you may recognize that name. Why? Because you listen to the podcast. And back in 2023, we interviewed Doc G in episode number 361 around his first book, engaging purpose, and it was titled Taking Stock, as he shared why the question so many people ask at the end of their lives are the ones you should be asking right now, plus, how to be more intentional about both your money and your time. I encourage you, go back, listen to that initial episode because today we're going to build upon that with his next book that is titled The Purpose Code: How to Unlock Meaning, Maximize Happiness, and Leave a Lasting Legacy.

Today, we have all kinds of great things. And I guess what I'm really excited about today is having someone that's going to provide you some really concrete examples, exercises, tools that you can take back, implement in your life, and really elevate meaning at the end of the day, which is our goal here on the podcast. Doc G, if you didn't listen to that original episode, he is the Associate Medical Director at Unity Hospice. He's also a financial blogger and the podcast host of The Earn & Invest Podcast. To get a free copy of the Purpose Code, all you have to do is go on over to iTunes, write us an honest rating and review on iTunes. I'd love to hear your feedback. I consume every single one of those and I apply it to what we're providing you week in and week out.

So, write that honest rating and review and then just shoot us a text and we can verify that iTunes username, send you a free copy of the book, and that is simply by texting us at 888-599-4491. Text the word 'book' or just check out a link in the show notes or visit us at HowardBailey.com and we'll get you there. Well, let's get into it with Doc G. Welcome back to the show.

Jordan Grumet: Casey, I'm so excited to be here. Meaning and purpose, that's exactly what I like to talk about.

Casey Weade: Well, you're on the right show, my friend. And so, I know we only have so much time together. So, I want to get right into the meat of everything here, start talking about purpose right away, but let's go back to this origin story. We have a guy named Roman that you talk about in this new book that taught you the power of purpose. So, what were the most impactful lessons that influenced the way that you live your life today that you learned from Roman?

Jordan Grumet: Roman taught me so much, but most importantly, he showed me that if you pursue a version of purpose that lights you up, something that excites you, it can impact the rest of the world. And it doesn't have to be this big, audacious, world-changing purpose. So, Roman owned an antique store. One day he was cleaning out an armoire. He found a bunch of baseball cards in it. He used to like to fix these armoires up and sell them in his antique store. He called the guy who sold them the armoires and said, "Hey, I got these baseball cards. You want them back?" The guy said no. He threw them out on his counter, didn't think twice about it, and a woman and her unwieldy teenager came in.

The teenager looked at the cards and said, "I'll give you $10 for these cards." Now, Roman was like, "Great. Ten bucks. I didn't even think I was going to get anything for this." Teenager bought the cards, spread them out the counter right there, and said, "You see these three cards? Together, they're worth $100." So, instead of getting pissed off, Roman got kind of excited and he had a vision that this could be a version of purpose for him. It kind of lit him up. It excited him. He immediately hired the kid. His name was Ryan. He said, "You're going to work for me. I'm going to start selling baseball cards out of my antique store." He did do that.

Eventually, he sold more baseball cards than he did antiques. But more importantly, he created a community for the kids in the neighborhood. I was one of those kids. I had a learning disability. I had almost no friends. I was a geek. And he created a place for me to come and feel like I belonged. It was the first time I felt like I belonged. It was the first time I felt important or that I could connect to other people. Roman eventually got cancer and died. The antique store closed, but those years I spent in his antique store created a sense of confidence and a sense of community that I carried with me for the rest of my life. I would have never become a doctor, I would have never become a podcaster, I would have never become a writer unless I had some of that positive sense of self.

And I think not just me, but all the other 100 kids who went in and out of the store. Now, think about this. Roman didn't do this because he wanted to impact the world. He didn't do this because he wanted to create a community. He did it because the idea of baseball cards and buying and selling them was really exciting to him. But the other big lesson, so one is these little things that excite us can actually change the world even if we're not trying to. That was lesson one. Lesson two was that you don't just find purpose. It doesn't just fall on your head. Yes, he sold these baseball cards and was like, "Oh, this means something to me," but then he had to build a life of purpose around it. He had to go study baseball cards. He had to hire Ryan. He had to figure out how to stock them and how to create the business.

And so, he built a life of purpose. He didn't find it. And so, I think those are really two big lessons that led to the writing of this book. One, little purpose can give you maximal impact, and two, you don't find purpose, you build it.

Casey Weade: That's what I love about this story. It's just about taking action and getting started, getting the ball rolling. And as I looked at one of the questions from one of our weekend reading subscribers, it really tied in well with us and what you just said there. And if you want to know how you can submit a question for these interviews, you're listening and go, "I want to ask Jordan a question," well, if you're a Weekend Reading subscriber, you would have had that opportunity. So, subscribe to Weekend Reading, and then we'll reach out to you prior to these interviews and you can submit a question like Tom here. So, I want to lay out his question and tell you kind of how it ties in here.

Tom said, "Do you ascribe to the idea that one shouldn't retire until he has a purpose, big or little, to work towards? I've been retired for a little less than a year, and while I thought I had a good idea of where I was headed, I have actually expanded my initial ideas and I'm doing more than I expected. I love this question and, to me, it takes me back to what I'll often hear from younger individuals that are thinking about going to college. Maybe they're coming out of high school or coming out of college or they're new employees here at Howard Bailey. And we hear this all the time, "Well, I just want to find that dream job. I want to find that job that is going to bring me happiness, it's going to bring me a sense of purpose. And I'm not going to do anything until I figure out what that is."

And I think what you laid out there is you just have to do things and you build your purpose around it. I know when I got into this business, I didn't have this idea that I was going to be making a meaningful impact in the non-financial side of people's lives. But that's what it became. And I had to create that out of it. It wasn't all fun when I first started. It took a lot of years for this to be really fun and bring me an immense sense of purpose. So, I just like to see kind of how you answer that question for Tom.

Jordan Grumet: So, there are a few thoughts. First and foremost, what I found, because I'm in the financial dependence world, is we talk a lot about retirement. And I found that people are about 50/50. Half of people need a discreet plan for when they leave their job. They need to know what their week is going to look like. These are the type As, type-A personalities, and they want to really develop a sense of purpose before they leave their job. The other half are so burned out and exhausted and they're not the type As, and they're like, "I want to sit on the couch for six months until I have the energy. And once I'm there, then I'm going to be able to really jump into these things that feel purposeful." Here's the other piece of this.

So, I think either of those are fine. You just have to decide what kind of person you are. But the other side and what people really mistake is when I say, "We don't find purpose, we build it," I'm not exactly 100% on that. And the reason why is we do have to decide what to build purpose around. I call these purpose anchors. These are the inklings, the beckonings of things that might be important to us that we then build a life of purpose around. The building is so much more important than the anchor, and this is what I think people get wrong. They think and they spend all their time trying to find these anchors, these things that are going to be massively important to them, this passion.

But I actually tell people there are a million different anchors, there are a million different things you might like where the work really comes in as the action which is building the life of purpose around it. And even more importantly, and I almost contradict myself here at the book, it's not even purpose that's so important. Purpose is just a great conduit to building connections and community. And so, it's really going to make you happier, these connections in this community you build, and the way you're going to do that is you're going to build it through pursuing purpose. But the actual anchor that you start building around is only important enough that it gets you interested and excited and start doing things that you enjoy the process of doing.

A lot of times when I really do some of these exercises with people, we come up with 10 or 15 different purpose anchors and they're like, "Oh, my God, which one do I pursue?" And I say, "Put them on a dart board and throw a dart. It doesn't matter which ones you start with. Just pick two or three." When we take the stakes down and say that purpose is not this big thing that you either find it and live a happy life or you don't find it and you're miserable. When we get rid of that idea and instead realize that purpose can be big or it can be small, you can have one purpose or you can have many versions of purpose. Your purpose can last a lifetime, but it also can last a few weeks, and that's fine too.

Your purpose can immediately impact the world, but it doesn't have to. When we let go of all those rules and realize that ideally, purpose is about process. It's about doing things we really enjoy the process of doing. I call this in my book Little P Purpose as opposed to a Big P purpose, which is big and audacious and goal-oriented. When we build a sense of purpose around these little things that we like the process of doing, there are no rules. You make it into what you want it to be. And I think that's really where the magic is.

Casey Weade: Sometimes I feel that this concept of purpose, it just kind of turns people off sometimes. And you mentioned that in some of your public talks that the most common reaction as you're talking about purposes is a negative reaction. And it took me back to someone that reached out to us once. You know, our radio show is Retire With Purpose for the last, I don't know, 10, 15 years. And I'll never forget that this caller called in to the radio show and said, "I find it very insulting that your show is called Retire with Purpose. You're assuming that all retirees are without purpose." I just feel like it's misunderstood what we're actually talking about when it comes to purpose. Why do you feel that you get this kind of visceral or negative reaction from so many when you talk about this?

Jordan Grumet: I mean, it's classic purpose anxiety. We've been brought up in this society to believe that we have these overwhelming versions of purpose that we should pursue, and most of them are big and audacious, right? In America, if you can think about it, you can build it. So, no one says, "Hey, Tommy, you want to become mid-level management." No. They say you want to become the CEO. You want to become the Major League Baseball player. You want to be president. No one says, "Hey, you want to be on some school board somewhere." We tend to think big. This is not just our friends and our family. This is social media and influencers and marketing who show us pictures of six-pack abs and traveling the world and eight-figure businesses.

Everyone is trying to get us to co-opt this version of purpose, and usually, it's so that they can make money. The influencer wants you to follow them or wants you to buy whatever they're advertising. The marketer wants you to buy into this lifestyle, so you buy their product. They want to convince you that if you just get this product, you're going to have this wonderful, purposeful, big, beautiful life. And so, it doesn't serve most of us. And that's the problem. And so, it's very anxiety-provoking. When you use the P word, purpose, people are envisioning all these things that are shown to them on social media and by marketing, and those are really hard to reach.

We're not the right person at the right time with saying the right things with the right genetics and the right amount of luck. So, I can work out as much as I want. I'm probably not going to have six-pack abs and I don't even want to work that hard. I don't want to follow the diet restrictions. Like, that's not my version of fun. So, if I'm looking at social media and I'm watching all these fitness influencers, I'm going to feel frustrated. Same with the eight-figure business, same with the traveling to every country in the world. Same with wearing designer clothes. We're getting all these messages of what purpose should look like, and it's really anxiety-provoking when we realize that we don't have agency to actually accomplish things, nor maybe even interest.

Because while all that stuff looks great, I don't know about you, but I don't want to travel all the time. Like, I like being home. I like having my exercise habit. I like having my eating habit. And if I were to travel all the time, I'd be miserable. And so, I think that's why we have anxiety because society is really telling us we should be something different.

Casey Weade: And Linda's question spoke directly to that. She recognizes this and she's concerned about that. She says, "In a process of discovering purpose, what actions should be taken until that purpose is discovered to avoid things like depression and losing hope?" I think that, to me, what I hear you saying is, well, you can avoid that depression and fear of losing hope if you refrain from this pursuit of the big P purpose.

Jordan Grumet: And let's look at this, right? So, the data is clear. There are tons of studies that show that pursuing a sense of purpose in life increases your health, longevity, and happiness. Tons and tons of data. So, if I was to tell you, I could give you this pill and you're going to live 20% longer and be 20% happier, you would take it, no question. But when it comes to purpose, people get a certain type of nihilism where it's like, "It doesn't exist because I don't know what it is and I can't find it." So, I think by just putting it aside and saying, "There is no purpose and it's making me anxious so I'm not going to think about it," I think we miss out on all the good stuff that could come along with it.

So, the key again is to reframe it, to take it away from that thing that gives us the anxiety, the frustration, and the depression, what gives us the purpose anxiety, and make it much more palatable, much more reachable, and specifically much more abundant. Because the problem with big P purpose is it's very scarcity mindset oriented and a lot of it's very much winner takes all, all or nothing. Like, only a certain number of people can be billionaires. Only a certain number of people can be president. You either get there and you're happy for a moment or you don't, and you feel like a miserable failure. I want purpose to feel abundant like it's impossible to fail. You just got to reach out, grab it, and build that life you want.

Casey Weade: How is that more personal? I see how it puts you in control. That puts you in the driver seat when you're pursuing something smaller, more manageable, a place to start with. How is it more personal at the same time?

Jordan Grumet: Well, think about it. We are given this vision of purpose that isn't individualized at all. Right? We already know. I know. You know. You look at TikTok. It's going to tell you exactly what purpose should look like. And again, it's looking really good, it's having lots of money, and it's traveling to far-off places. That's not very individual. Whereas I love baseball cards. Where do you see that on TikTok? Where do you see that on Instagram? You don't. But I know that for me that's a purpose anchor because of my experiences with Roman, because of how I grew up. That's all individual and personal to me. But I can derive pleasure and build a community of people around me having to do with baseball cards and that can fill me up and make me a happier person.

And so, it's wrong to feel that everyone has the same purpose and that purpose should be big and hard to achieve. Most of us find purpose in different things. Some people love horses. Some people love pickleball. Some people love... You name it, there's someone who loves it. My wife loves to buy purses. And the problem with buying purses is she really likes Coach purses. But the problem is, if you buy them online, especially through something like eBay, you don't know if they're authentic or not. Well, there is a guy who used to work for Coach who, for free, if you send him a picture, he'll look at all the serial numbers and everything and tell you whether it's authentic or not and he does it completely for free.

Why? Because for this guy, Coach purses feel like purpose. That's crazy. That's why it's personal. That's why it's individual. We just have to have the courage to pursue these things that light us up, even if they don't fit that vision of what everyone tells us should be purpose.

Casey Weade: So, I have a personal question on this. And so, I know you have two children. I have three. So, they're four, seven, and nine right now. And something that I've done with them for the last 6 or 7 years at least, is I asked them every day, what's their purpose? And they simply say to help people. And now my personal belief is we all share the same purpose. We do all have a universal purpose. And that's my personal belief. I believe we all share the purpose of helping people. And I think the stories that you're telling, that's what I hear coming out of Roman, that we're here to help people. And I'm just curious, how do you approach that with your kids and what are your thoughts on what I've been kind of seeding with my children?

Jordan Grumet: I think that...

Casey Weade: Tell me if I'm wrong.

Jordan Grumet: No. It's not that you're wrong. I think helping people is a happy side effect that's almost guaranteed if you do things that light you up. So, as I was saying, I almost mislead people in the book because I talk about how important purpose is, but really, purpose is just a great conduit to interpersonal connections and community. The thing about is when you do things that light you up, you shine. And when you shine like a moth to a flame, other people are attracted to you. And so, if they have something to teach you, they want to be your teacher. And if they have something to learn from you, they want to be your student. And if they can collaborate with you, they want to work with you. And it's when you form these relationships that you automatically change the world around you.

Look, Roman wasn't planning on giving to me or helping me or changing my life, but he did something that lit him up and it naturally happened. We all have these stories of people who did things that were deeply and uniquely interesting to them, and it changed the world. I became a doctor, which wasn't, I don't think, my true sense of purpose because I thought I was going to help people and fix people, and I helped then fix a few people. When I started doing something that truly lit me up, which was podcasting and writing and be an author, I affect thousands and thousands of people who consume my content. And I didn't do that because I wanted to help thousands and thousands of people. I did it because it was deeply interesting to me.

Casey Weade: How would you shift that affirmation with your children? Maybe there's people listening with grandchildren. They want to have some kind of affirmation that leads their children ultimately to a place where they create that sense of purpose. What might that look like?

Jordan Grumet: Well, here's what I say to people. I say, "People can't be your purpose." And a lot of parents, especially, look at me like I'm crazy. But listen to me here. The thing about it is there's something called generational growth or what I call generational growth. It means when you are deeply engaged in purpose or anything, you pass that on to your children. So, we know what generational trauma is. We know when we go through trauma, it develops certain narratives in our head. We pass those narratives on to our kids. Our kids have those narratives. And a lot of time it doesn't serve them. We see this with money a lot, right? We see it all the time where someone had an uncle or an aunt or a parent who lost all their money.

And so, they become super conservative and never invest their money. And then they tell their children, "Well, you don't want to be like Uncle so-and-so. Don't invest your money. Keep it in a savings account." We see this all the time. That's generational trauma. It's the trauma of one generation giving us bad habits, which we then pass on to the next generation. I think the exact opposite is true. We also have generational growth. And so, instead of telling my children that they are my reason for being, that they are my purpose, what I do is I authentically find what I call little P purpose, the stuff that lights me up that I love the process of doing and I model that behavior for my kids.

And I'm passing on that behavior. So, when they become adults, they have permission to do things that light them up. I don't want them to decide their version of purpose has to do with whether they have kids or not. What if they can't have kids? What if they never find a spouse? What if, genetically, things don't work right? What if they can't afford to have kids? I don't want them to feel like their version of purpose is lost because of that. I want to model the behavior. I want to give them the generational growth that when they do things that are deeply important and appealing to them, that it makes them happy and they connect with and affect other people.

And the best way to do that is to show them me doing that in my own time, which means I don't want them to see me just spending all my time going to their games, involved in their practices, and tutoring them at school. I want them to see me behind my podcast microphone lit up and excited and speaking so fast I can't control myself because that's what I want them to have when they're my age.

Casey Weade: That's beautiful. One of my favorite quotes is, "More is caught than taught," and that is exactly what you're sharing right there. Well, let's get into process. So, we want to get this started. And when I identify that sense of purpose, Jim asked this the most obvious question. How can you best identify your sense of purpose? So, I think that is, where is the starting point? Is the starting point your life review that we discussed in our last visit, or is there somewhere else?

Jordan Grumet: So, the starting point is, again, we don't find purpose, we create it but we do need these inklings, these beckonings, what I call purpose anchor, which are things that kind of excite us that we can then build a life of purpose around. So, there are a bunch of exercises in the book and there are a bunch of ways to find your purpose anchors. Now, even before I go through those, let me submit that most people probably actually know what their purpose anchors are. They've just never given themselves permission to really think about them or believe in them.

Casey Weade: Or they never put that weight on them either. They've never put...

Jordan Grumet: Yeah, they think it's frivolous. Yeah. Almost everyone has hobbies. Almost everyone falls asleep excited by something and then kind of puts it away and doesn't think about it again. So, I think people actually, if you really ask them, they kind of know. But there are a bunch of exercises that can help you suss out these purpose anchors. The life review is a great one. And so, the life review is a structured series of questions we do with our hospice patients. When they're comfortable, we talk about their greatest achievements, greatest failures, their greatest wishes, the people that were important in their life, and specifically the one that's going to really help us young people is we talk about regrets.

So, for a young person trying to find a purpose anchor, I love the regret question. And the question is, if you found out you're going to die tomorrow, what would you regret never having the energy, courage, or time to do? Well, in a dying person, that's really frustrating because you don't have agency, but in a young person where you have time and your health and your energy, we can just flip that regret right into a purpose anchor. If you know you're going to regret something when you die, let's build a life of purpose around that now. And so, I think that's one really easy way is to start looking at regrets and flipping them into purpose anchors. Another way is to just look at the joys of childhood...

Casey Weade: Before you get to that next one, I'm curious, do you find that it's... You worked with so many hospice patients at the end of their lives. I didn't know that would be frustrating for them to identify those regrets. I kind of imagine it would be easier to identify our regrets at the end of our lives versus the beginning of our lives when we're younger because we just can't see the forest for the trees. Do you find that's true?

Jordan Grumet: So, I think there’s some of that. But anyone who’s lived enough life, especially if you’re out there, you’re a professional, we all end up having some regrets. I wish I did this different. I wish I spent more time doing this. Or sometimes, regrets are just about I’m getting older and realizing I’m not fulfilling those dreams I had. And so, yes, I think as more and more life is lived, you have the chance to make more mistakes, but everything is not about mistakes.

So, we talk about, there’s different types of regret, right? There’s action regret and inaction regret. Inaction regret is I wish I really did this thing, but I never did. Like, I wish I wrote that book, but I never took the time to do it. Whereas action regret is like, gosh, I really wish that I hadn’t had those three drinks before I got in the car and gotten to that accident.

So, the more life you live, especially the more action regrets you’re going to have. But I think we have inaction regrets, especially from the beginning. We have these dreams of what we want to be. And as time passes, we realize that we’re not putting enough energy into them.

A lot of people think that action regrets can’t be used as a purpose anchor, but a lot of times, it’s not the action. It’s that we never built something on that action we did wrong. So, I had those few drinks, got in the car, got into that accident, but I never went and talked to the family about it. I never went and started educating people on drinking and driving. I never did something to improve the situation that I created with my “bad” action. So, a lot of times, either way, regret can become a purpose anchor.

Casey Weade: Right. That’s fantastic. So, we had life review, and then you’re moving on to number two.

Jordan Grumet: So, number two, really an easy one is the joys of childhood. So, as we get older, society, influencers, our parents all tell us what we should be. A lot of times, it has to do with a career. I’m going to be a doctor, a lawyer, a CPA, whatever it is. But if you look at kids, kids get involved in play and often don’t even worry about the end point. They get so lost in what they’re doing that they forget time. They miss dinner. They don’t come in in time. Usually, kids know what feels purposeful and lose that over time.

So, the question is, what did you love as a child? So, think about your childhood room. What were the posters? What were the drawings? What were the medals that you had all around your room? Those can be purpose anchors.

For me, baseball cards always is one of those. I loved baseball cards when I was little. I got older and told myself, well, that’s not something adults do, right? I got to become a doctor and I get really busy, etc. But every time I’m scrolling on Facebook or see a newspaper article about baseball cards, my brain lights up.

So, I happen to be busy enough with other purpose anchors that I don’t actually right now I have enough time to really pursue that. But if I was really looking for a version of purpose, I know that some of those joys of childhood are still there. So, I think that’s another really easy way to start thinking about purpose anchors.

Casey Weade: I love that. I’m just sitting here reflecting on my childhood posters and the things that are in my room, the things that I got lost doing. And I look at those, I love cars and hunting and golf and collecting, collecting basketball cards, and music. And those are all things that I’ve embedded back in my life, kind of layered back in over time. But there’s more work to be done there that now I’m jazzed up. I want to go out, and you know what? I want to do more of that.

Jordan Grumet: And here’s what’s really, really, really cool about this. Just take any of those. Take one. Okay? Let’s say music.

Casey Weade: That’s probably the one that I’ve neglected.

Jordan Grumet: So, think about all of the millions of activities you could build, all the versions of purpose you could build around music. You could start playing a musical instrument, maybe you want to pick up the guitar again. You could write a blog about music. You could start going to local jazz bars and hang out with the people who hang out in jazz bars. You could start writing your own music. I mean, I could just think of the million different activities you could start building around this purpose anchor.

And the beautiful thing about it is you try one, you try another. They either work or they don’t. You spend your day doing this thing, and at the end of the day, you’re like, “Yeah, I’m jazzed up. I want to do this again.” Boom, you’re there. You spend the day doing it and you’re like, “I got a headache. My neck hurts, and I don’t know if I want to do that again,” you’re done. You move on to the next thing. It’s abundant. There’s so many possibilities.

Casey Weade: And that would be kind of your spaghetti method there, kind of this trial in the air. But I just find so often, I’ve had these conversations with people over the years that are struggling with this concept and they can’t, they’re, yeah, I was interested then. I’m not interested anymore. I just don’t know what I’m interested in today or where I want to start.

Jordan Grumet: I think, again, they forget that it isn’t even the purpose anchor nearly as much as it’s building the life of purpose around. It doesn’t matter where you start. It’s really about how you build. And so, yes, I’d rather have you start in a place that naturally lights you up a little bit because it’s a really good, easy starting point, but it’s really in the building.

And so, I want to convince people there’s some agency there, like it depends on you. It doesn’t just fall on your head. You either have this wonderful, purposeful thing or you don’t. It’s that you get an inkling, but then you get to work. And so, what a lot of these people are really saying when they kind of say, “I used to like this, but I don’t, blah, blah,” is they’re really telling you they don’t want to work. And I’m sorry to tell you, it’s going to take some work. It’s not going to just happen to you.

Casey Weade: And so, we go back, we take stock of our life, take stock of our childhood. We come up with these anchors. Now, we have these anchors. We identified the anchors. And next, we get to the climb.

Jordan Grumet: So, the climb is just basically taking those purpose anchors and its purpose or action in motion. It means that we are then doing the process of building. So, I do a lot of purpose coaching. We spend a lot of time finding these purpose anchors. And I’ll take one purpose anchor, let’s say hiking, and then we’ll start building climbs around that purpose anchor. So, you say, okay, you like hiking. Does that mean you like to go on hikes? Yeah, I’d like to do that a few hours a week. Great. That’s a purpose anchor. We’re going to build a climb around it. You are going to do a weekly hike for three hours, and here are the 10 different places you’re going to do that.

Okay, well, that’s one anchor. Would you like to teach people about hiking? Or would you like to lead hikes? Oh, yeah, that sounds exciting. So, then we can build a hike about becoming a hiking guide. Maybe you were really passionate about this and you want to tell the world about the joys of hiking. Could we build a climb around a podcast? Could we build a climb around a blog? Could you join a hiking group that goes on weekly hikes? All of those are climbs. They’re just structured activities built around that purpose anchor. That is that purposeful activity in motion.

Remember, purpose is about the present and future and it’s about action. And so, what we want to do is we want to build all these activities. We want to build all this action into our life. And those are your climbs. So, you can have one climb or many climbs. And again, just like purpose, your climb can last for a year or it can last for a week or it can last for six years, doesn’t matter. And the moment you’re in the midst of the climb and you’re like, “I don’t like this anymore, I’m not enjoying the process, I don’t like trying to find a new handhold and get to the next level,” then it’s time to switch mountain, start climbing somewhere else.

Casey Weade: You have five rules for a healthy climb. The number one is that it shouldn’t be goal oriented. These sounds like goals to me that I have a goal of doing a weekly hike, I have a goal of becoming a hiking guide, I have a goal of creating a podcast around climbing.

Jordan Grumet: Well, here’s the difference. If it’s a goal around– so, first of all, I’m goal agnostic. I don’t mind goals. But the key is you have to enjoy the process of getting towards that goal. So, you can have a goal of hiking, you can have a goal of joining a group, you can have a goal of all these things. If you enjoy the process of doing it, whether you reach the goal or not, then it’s probably worth doing. If you start not enjoying the process and the only thing you really enjoy is once you hit that goal, you’re going to spend a lot of time doing things you don’t enjoy.

And so, if your goal is to do a weekly hike, but you don’t like the day-to-day activities, you don’t like getting your gear together, you don’t like being on the path, you don’t like all of that stuff, you just like when you get to that finish line and say, I did a hike at the end of the day, then you probably got it wrong. And you’re going to spend most of your time doing stuff you don’t like in service of something you do like that probably won’t keep you happy for very long.

Casey Weade: So, it’s not the idea that we’re setting a goal that needs to be achieved, such as I want to build a seven-figure business or I want to have $1 million by the time I retire. It’s a goal of doing, it’s just a goal of activity, a goal of doing and moving forward. It’s a goal of moving forward on this ladder and continuing to climb.

Jordan Grumet: Look, you can say I want to have a seven-figure business and you can say I’m going to build that business by creating shoe stores and selling shoes. And here’s the thing. You either like selling shoes or you don’t. If you like the process of setting up the shoe stores, if you like figuring out the inventory, if you like interacting with the people and helping people try on shoes, if that lights you up and it’s a good use of your time, guess what? It probably doesn’t matter whether you hit the goal or not because you’re using your time well.

If your only goal is to make $1 million or $1 billion and you hate shoe stores and you hate doing inventory and you hate interacting with the people in the shoe store, you’re spending all your time doing things you hate in service of the one thing you want, which is making the million or billion dollars. And guess what? You’re going to spend 90% of your time doing something you don’t like. Once you get there, so you either fail and don’t get there, so you’re just frustrated, or you succeed and get there and you know how happy you’re going to be once you make that million dollars. You and I both know this. It’s something called hedonic adaptation. No matter how excited you are about hitting that million dollars a week or two or three later, it becomes your normal state and you’re not even excited about anymore.

So, what are you going to do? You’re going to double down and say, “I want to make 2 million in sales,” which means you’re going to get back doubling down on that work that you hate in order to get to that goal, which will make you happy briefly. It’s not worth it. Buying things you love, the process of doing, be goal agnostic. You can have tons of goals and if you hit them, great. And if you don’t hit them, great. But if you enjoy what you’re doing on the way, you’ve won. That’s it.

Casey Weade: So, we can have a goal, but the goal is around activity, number one. So, the number one rule is to not have the goal be the thing, if that’s fair. Number two, it must be made of activities, things that you enjoy doing. So, it’s about the activity. Number three, you shouldn’t be able to fail your climb. And I know you’ve spoken to that and you shouldn’t assign a quantitative or qualitative value impact to your climb.

Jordan Grumet: Yeah, yeah. And let’s put in terms of money, which makes it really, really clear. Like, you can have a goal of making $1 million and if that is your sole purpose in life, you and I both know this after talking to people about retiring on purpose forever, you’re going to be miserable.

But instead, if you look at money as a tool to help you do the things that light you up, it doesn’t even matter if you get to that goal or not. Like, you’re excited about using that money as a tool, doing the things you like to do, etc. But if the goal is making the money, once you get there, what then?

Casey Weade: Rule number four, incorporate incremental gain. And so, how can I incorporate incremental gain? I guess, in a way of how I’m measuring it, if I’m not supposed to measure it.

Jordan Grumet: Well, here’s the thing. So, I love podcasting, right? And so, my little p purpose is podcasting because when I get in front of the microphone and I get to interview someone, that hour is well spent, even if no one ever hears it. Now, instead a huge, big audacious goal, I can say I want a million downloads every month. If I start doing stuff that I don’t enjoy, the process of doing to get there, if I start spending all my time on social media, even though I hate social media trying to get people to listen, if I write a newsletter, although I don’t like writing a newsletter to get more people to listen, if I start doing all those kind of things, that becomes my big audacious purpose. And I might even get to those million downloads a month, but I’m spending most of my time doing things I don’t like.

Let me turn that around. What if I have a goal of making a million downloads a month, but I only stick to the things I really love the process of doing? I might get there, I might not, but I love the process of doing whatever I’m doing, so I’m happy. But I like progress. So, maybe in order to really make a great podcast, I should study how to be a better interviewer.

So, what do I have agency over? I can listen to great interviewers, right? I can go take a class on public speaking. I can study by doing a deep dive on the Internet ways of being a better interviewer. Those are all things I have agency to do. I hopefully will enjoy the process of doing, and they’re all in service of a goal. But whether I reach that goal or not, it’s probably not important. And I can set little goals that I do have some agency over which probably will make me happier.

So, I might not be able to get a million downloads every month, but I can engage more of my listeners. I can maybe get 50 more listeners every month. Maybe, maybe not. But if I start doing these things that I enjoy doing that I have agency over, I think what happens is you find that you can have the sense of building and improving without it all being big, audacious goals that frustrate you.

Casey Weade: And retirement really provides us the freedom to explore so many things that have nothing to do with finances. When we don’t have to pay the mortgage anymore, we don’t have to pay for the kids’ education anymore provides that freedom. And I can see some apprehension around rule number five that it doesn’t need to be monogamous, that we can have multiple climbs.

And well, could we have too many climbs? What if I have too many different things? You know people like this that have 100 different things they’re doing and they never actually get to the end of anything. Or maybe they never are, really, will they– does that limit their ability to reach that big P that they’re looking for?

Jordan Grumet: So, let me try to blow your mind here. A person who has too many climbs probably has purpose anxiety. Basically, what they’re saying is I don’t feel like the things I’m doing are enough. And so, I have to keep on adding more and more and more and more, more climbs. And so, the truth of the matter is there is a limit to time and space in your life.

The idea is not to pack in as many things as possible, but really to fill your time with things that light you up. And so, if you’re engaged in way, way too many things, what you’re really probably saying is I think there’s something more purposeful out there. And if I just add in more and more, I’ll find that one thing and I won’t miss out. So, I think that’s purpose anxiety.

I think we’re much better served on deciding how many things feels good and calm and realistic. And then if you’re like, I want to engage more, build one out more, as opposed to adding extra climbs. And so, maybe I want to spend more time podcasting. Maybe I’ll do two episodes a week instead of one. Maybe I’ll do a two-hour hike instead of a one-hour hike. I’d rather have you build that way than just keep on adding more and more, because I think then you get to that anxiety point where you’re trying to prove something, and purpose is not really good at proving something. We haven’t gotten into it. Meaning is better at that, but purpose really is not meant to prove your worthiness.

Casey Weade: Well, that is where I want to go. Meaning. So, our planning, so I think you might challenge my thinking on this here today. I’ve always felt, and this is our planning process, frankly. So, our Retire with Purpose process, our financial planning framework, it starts with identifying purpose. And then once we’ve done that, then we’re building the financial life plan around that purpose, and then we’re able to elevate meaning in life.

Now, you say that meaning is the starting point, meaning starts before purpose. Well, that’s the opposite of the way that we’ve built our framework. We might have to make some changes then after this. You say meaning plus purpose equals happiness. So, let’s try then this.

Jordan Grumet: People confuse what meaning and purpose are. And so, this is my interpretation. I think meaning is all about our past. It’s the cognitive way we think about what we’ve been through. So, in other words, meaning is the stories we tell ourselves about ourselves. It’s kind of like our worldview. People who are happy, who have a good sense of meaning, tend to tell themselves heroic stories about their past. They’ll say, when I was younger, I had this trauma, but I got through it, and that’s where I am, where I am today, the successful adult. And therefore, I’m going to step into the present and future and be successful. That’s happy people.

Unhappy people, when they think about meaning, tell themselves a victim story. They say, I had this trauma when I was younger. I was thwarted and that’s where I am, where I am today. And that’s why I’ll probably continue to be thwarted in the present and future. So, meaning is about thoughts and it’s all about the stories we tell ourselves about ourselves.

Now, purpose is the exact opposite. Purpose is not about thoughts. It’s about actions and it’s about the present and future. Here’s the thing. I think to be happy, we need both of them. But why I think we need to focus on meaning sometimes in the beginning is a lot of times, people skip the meaning step and it affects their sense of purpose. What do I mean? Meaning is about the past and it’s about the thoughts and it’s about the stories we tell ourselves about ourselves. Meaning is really about feeling enough. It’s a journey to enough.

People who have a good sense of meaning, basically, what they say is I went through trauma, I went through bad things, but I was enough. And that’s why I got to where I am today, whereas unhappy people say I wasn’t enough and that’s why I’m not where I want to be. If you don’t have a good sense of enoughness, what happens when you move to purpose, which is the present and future and has to do with actions? Well, you’re like, I don’t feel enough and I don’t have a good sense of meaning. So, what I’m going to try to do is purpose my way to enough. I’m going to try to achieve all these things in order to prove that I’m enough, and it just doesn’t work.

How do we know this? There are tons of people in popular culture who’ve tried to purpose their way to enough and happiness, and it doesn’t work. Steve Jobs was a perfect example. This guy came up with some of the greatest tech in the world. He had more money than most people, and yet, he never really looked happy. He was kind of a jerk. The reason why, he was trying to purpose his way to enough. He’s like, if I could just achieve, I’m going to feel good about myself, I’m going to feel enough. And he never got there.

Elon Musk, same thing. Richest guy in the world, created some of the most amazing things in the world, and yet, he looks unhappy most of the time. It’s because achievements and money can’t buy you purpose and happiness. You can’t purpose your way to enough. It’s a meaning problem.

So, for a lot of these people, in order to really enjoy purpose, to let go of the big goals, to enjoy the process, to quit trying to prove their worthiness through purpose, they’ve got to go back and tell themselves better stories about themselves. A lot of times, they need therapy, something called narrative therapy, where we change some of those narratives so that we can then move into the present and future joyfully.

If you don’t have a great sense of meaning, you’re going to feel a little bit thwarted when you go to your present and future. And that’s all about purpose. Purpose is easy. It’s actions. It’s doing stuff we really love and enjoy. Once we start trying to give it more meaning and say that it’s going to prove our worthiness, we get back on that treadmill and we’re just trying to achieve more and more and we’re trying to prove. And that’s where the big audacious goals come in. And that’s why I kind of say, well, you kind of have to have a little bit of an understanding of your sense of meaning before you move on to purpose.

Casey Weade: I think we all need that more than we think we do. And I say that there was a statistic that we shared on the podcast recently, and it was about self-awareness. When I hear you say when you talk about meaning is we really need to dig into our self-awareness. And the statistic was that I believe 85% of individuals say that they’re highly self-aware. But the research shows that only 10% to 15% actually have that self-awareness.

I think it’s kind of a misunderstanding of what it means to actually be self-aware. And if self-awareness, if I am correct here that that self-awareness helps us heal in that world of meaning, how do you think through that process? How do you think about self-awareness? And define self-awareness for those that, well, it looks like the majority of us, I, myself included, and you, we’re wrong about how self-aware we actually are.

Jordan Grumet: So, I love the same definition that I use for meaning. It’s kind of the stories we tell ourselves about ourselves, and that’s self-awareness. Now, interestingly enough, those stories don’t have to be 100% true, right? We change the narrative over time as we get older and wiser and bring in a new understanding of the world. So, it’s not that you have a 100% accurate story you tell yourself about yourself. It’s that you take yourself, put yourself in the midst of the circumstances and are not just aware of yourself, but aware of the world around you.

And specifically, we removed ourself from the guilt and judgment, especially of the trauma, and realized that we weren’t bad people. And that’s not why we went through trauma. We were good people in a bad situation. And so, that self-awareness, it’s very hard.

And again, everything about purpose, everything about meaning, none of this is easy. This is all work. And so, we have to be very aware of the fact that most of us actually are good people. Most of us actually want to be ethical and do the right thing. But a lot of times, kids, we are put in situations that we just didn’t have the agency or understanding to deal with. And that’s really normal. So, you have to be aware, you have to retell yourself those stories, and you have to create better narratives.

Casey Weade: Jordan, we’re just scratching the surface here. And that’s all we want to do today. I want to scratch the surface because I want people to get your book and as we’re going to be giving away that book in just a minute. But I wanted to ask you, if nothing else, what’s the one thing that you hope that readers get as they finish this book?

Jordan Grumet: So, I’m going to be selfish here because actually, I do believe that I am sending out a selfish message, but it’s a selfish message that’s going to serve not just you, but the people around you. What do I want to come from this book? This book is me pursuing little p purpose to its fullest. This is me doing things that light me up. I love the writing process. I love the interview process. I love the marketing process. This is all about me.

On the other hand, I’ve created something that’s important to me, that’s very meaningful to me. And I’m hoping that by doing this very self-centered activity, by living this life of little p purpose, it will connect me to other people. I’ll be able to take what I know and collaborate with them.

For some people, this will teach them something that will change their lives. For other people, they’ll be like, hey, I have something to teach you and they’ll get in contact with me and say, hey, you’re talking about meaning and purpose, but did you ever think about it this way? This will help me create communities and connections where not only I grow and realize my own happiness, but add on to some of that generational growth, hand down to some of these people what I’ve learned and they can use that and pass it on. And so, that’s what I really hope.

Casey Weade: As selfish as it might be, Jordan, I will say, truly, I don’t believe there is a soul on this planet that wouldn’t benefit from reading this book. There is no harm that’s going to come to you from reading this book. It’s only going to elevate the impact that you’re able to make in this life, the legacy that you’re going to be able to leave behind.

So, get a copy of Jordan’s new book, The Purpose Code, by just writing us an honest rating and review over on iTunes of this podcast. Then shoot us a text with the keyword Book, B-O-O-K, to 888-599-4491. We’ll verify that iTunes username, we’ll send you a free copy, and we’ll start elevating your sense of purpose for this next phase of your life. Thanks, Jordan.

Jordan Grumet: Thank you so much for having me in this great conversation.

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