204: Building Your Marriage & Wealth Together with Elle Martinez

Casey Weade: Elle, welcome to the podcast.

Elle Martinez: Hey, I'm really happy to be here. How are you doing?

Casey Weade: I'm doing fantastic. I was just thinking about our interview this morning and going, Okay, well, hopefully, I learned something. So, I can take this back. And we can have our money date this week, as planned. We have our money dates, usually at least once a quarter, they're always scheduled once a quarter, but it usually comes up in conversation almost every single week. So, I'm going, okay, I gotta pull something out of Elle here to make this conversation just that much better this week.

Elle Martinez: Oh, that'd be great. We actually look forward to money dates. And I know we'll probably talk about this a little bit more, but it's not pulling out the spreadsheet, it actually is a date, and enjoying yourselves, and getting to know one another and checking with one another.

Casey Weade: Well, I have a bad habit of pulling out that spreadsheet from time to time, but the good thing is she loves seeing it. So, we're lucky in the way that we've been kind of weird with money since we first met, or at least I was, and I was able to get her on board with my money weirdness. So, it's been great for us, but we have so many couples that we work with that struggle, they're transitioning into retirement, and one has been managing the finances for their entire lives. And now, they both need to get on the same page as they transition into a new timeline that has everything to do with money. And they're on a fixed income now, it's a lot different. They're really starting to drill down on what those financial goals are, they have to make some big decisions. And sometimes this is just a real struggle.

So, with that, I thought about getting into why you started your blog off the top of our conversation, but we had a fan question come in. And this is one that's always just top of mind for me. And I'm always trying to figure out what we can do to overcome this issue, because I see it so often. So, I'm sure you'll have a great answer, we'll have a great conversation around this question from Raymond Zadjka, and I may have butchered that last name, but Raymond sent us this question as he is a weekend reading subscriber. So, if you sign up for a weekend reading email that goes out every Friday, you always have an opportunity to preempt these conversations with our guests. So, go to RetireWithPurpose.com to sign up for that. And you can be just like Raymond here who said, “My wife is not interested in finance. All she really cares about is that the money is available when she needs it. How do I get her to be more interested in managing our money?”

Elle Martinez: Wow. Okay, so just a heads up, we started a couple money because we needed this, and this is something that we've dealt with both ways with my husband and I, are levels of interest and hitting these goals. So, it sounds counterintuitive, especially when you're talking about personal finance and knocking out those goals, but one of the first steps I recommend with couples is sitting down, putting away the numbers, and actually start talking about what you would like to do if money wasn't an issue? What you're trying to do is persuade your spouse, but the first step is to find that motivating factor, what drives them to get up each morning? What would they like to do if you guys already had that money in the bank, everything's in the accounts, everything squared away? How would you spend your days?

And that was actually a mistake my husband and I did the first time, we did the whole rip-off the band aid and looked at the numbers. We survived it. And I'm glad we had that honest discussion, but if I had to redo it, that's the first step. And I've worked with a lot of couples and heard from them, that was a significant one, which was we go around with these very general goals, I want to retire or I want to save this amount, I want to buy a house like step by step, but we haven't defined exactly what it is and why it's meaningful. So, I believe the first thing couples should do is sit down, talk, have a date, and see where's your spouse at, what really motivates and drives them? Because you may be surprised, it's happened a few times in my community where the spouse is like, I didn't know that's what you wanted to do.

Casey Weade: Well, I see it, I think, where the problem is happening with some of the couples that we meet, it usually seems like it's an engineer type, maybe husband usually, it's sometimes it's other way around, sometimes the husband's a disinterested party, but quite often, it's the one that's just super numbers driven, has all these spreadsheets, and they want the spouse, their wife to come in there and get into those numbers with them. Come in, meet with a financial advisor and we want you to understand all of these numbers. And we have to understand the different types of communication.

Somebody has right brain, somebody has left brain, and maybe that is where we're going wrong, where we're saying, hey, I want you to meet with my financial advisor first, or really, it's our financial advisor you've never met, I want you to come in and meet with our financial advisor. And that is what I usually hear is it's a really intimidating conversation. They're intimidated and not interested in the money. Do we have to go to the source of why they don't want to have that conversation? And I guess, if we do want to go to that point and ask them those questions of why they don't want to have the conversation, how do we do it without being confrontational?

Elle Martinez: Well, I think it's hard. I do believe we need to get to the root of the matter, but I think that is the biggest mistake. We kind of make like, well, why aren't you interested? This is our finances. This is our future. And instead, that's why I say like, start with the goals, that's non confrontational, that's something positive. And sometimes, the best thing you can do is model that, say, in a few years, I'd like to pivot my career, I'm thinking of either on the side doing some business, or maybe I want to get into real estate investing in the next 5, 10 years, where you're sharing what you want to do, and why.

Some surprises that people have brought up to me, they didn't realize that their spouse wanted to still work, but have more time with the kids, which meant that entrepreneurship or at least having the finances, so they could negotiate with their boss for a more flexible schedule, was their motivation. Other times, it had been taken care of by loved ones. They have extended family, either a cultural or just a personal obligation they felt, like they want to support that family member, at least somewhat, or to help out somehow. And so, that was their motivation to get interested in the finances.

Well, how can we square this away? And so, instead of saying, “Why aren't you interested?” Find out, if we could, in an ideal situation, create or align our finances a certain way, what it would look to you, and why? Because sometimes, I think a couple, I mean, everybody, we follow these goals, because we think those are the steps that we have to take. And instead, what we should be doing is defining what our goals are and why it matters to us. And this is something that even if you're not pursuing financial independence, I think this is one of those pillars of financial independence that they get right, which is to define the lifestyle that you want. And I feel like that's a less confrontational way for couples to discuss their finances.

Casey Weade: Do we get into the source? Do you find that there is a common source for those individuals that are really avoidant of the financial planning conversation?

Elle Martinez: There's a couple. One, a lot of us come in with history with our finances. And it could be a model that we've seen growing up with their parents. I've seen a lot of couples deal with the fact that one grew up where there is a scarcity mindset, or they were living paycheck to paycheck. And so, certain things like debt were normal for them, and they didn't see an escape. I've actually had conversations when we were, for example, like buying a house, you'll always have a mortgage, like these small things in the back of our mind that say that it is impossible.

Another thing that we could see is where they've seen their parents model where one, like you had mentioned, maybe takes the lead with finances, but it might be an extreme case where they shut the other spouse out. And so, they've never had these discussions, they don't know how finances work, they never had practice within their family, which, as parents, that's something we're aware of now, and we're working with our kids, nine and five, even on a small scale. So, they're more aware of how budgets work and why you want to have a budget, so you can work towards those goals that you want.

Casey Weade: I think that's great insight. You have so many that have this scarcity mindset, and I see that. It's just we never have enough, we never have enough of a gal that just recently finally got her to retire, but she didn't need to be working at all, but she didn't want to have the conversation because it felt wrong to her because her parents never had enough, but it was really getting to the root of that issue. And you have also just that traditional mentality and just family structure where the husband always manages the finances. That's what mom and dad did, mom didn't have anything to do with it. However, I think there's some real issues with that today.

David Bach brought that to us in one of our past conversations, saying 85% of men are going to die married. Well, who's going to find out that the financial plan that the man put together actually worked out, the woman's got to be the one that's picking up the pieces and actually figures out if the man's plan actually worked out in the first place. And then, it kind of comes back to the financial advisor. So, when we have someone reach out to us and say, “Hey, I'm having trouble getting my wife on board.” Is there a way that that individual, say Raymond here, could reach out to his financial advisor and prepare them better to have a better conversation to get the spouse on board? What should financial advisors be doing in order to get the buy-in from a disinterested spouse?

Elle Martinez: Well, I think, financial planners and advisors can be so helpful because sometimes, and this has happened with us, where those initial conversations are a little confrontational, whether you intend to or not, and having that third party who is objective, but the first thing they need to do before you even buy in was like, having the plan and the finances, and you bring in the advisor, that spouse has to feel like the advisor is working for both of them. And if a spouse feels like that advisor isn't in their corner, they're going to be less likely to go in with a plan, they might drag their feet. I've seen people where their husband, their wife, yeah, yeah, I'll do it, but then they sabotage the budget, or you have financial infidelity, those secret purchases, here and there.

So, initially, have the conversation, just the two of you. And if needed, I would have the advisor meet with the reluctant spouse to kind of say, “Hey, listen, before we move in…

Casey Weade: Separately.

Elle Martinez: Yes, separately. I know your husband, your wife is really excited about this plan, but I want to advocate for you as well, this is a partnership, what are some things that you are feeling need to be on the table? What are some discussions we need to have? And they think if an advisor does that, it can start building that relationship because as you know, it really is about the communication between couples themselves, but then for the advisor, the planner to be a real partner, there has to be that open and honest communication between everybody.

Casey Weade: Now, what you said about financial infidelity, I've seen this firsthand, multiple times. There's one that comes to mind, we received a complaint from a wife last year. So, about a year ago, she complained saying that we never followed up with them, never called them, never scheduled appointments, never gave them regular updates. And I'm confused because we had emailed and spoke with her husband over a hundred times in like six months. And he had been pushing us to do things that he knew were right. And he would tell her that we never followed up, we never spoke with them. He was trying to sabotage the relationship because he never wanted a financial advisor in the first place. She wanted somebody to help. He didn't want somebody to help. So, he sabotaged the whole relationship by making us the bad guy.

These things really do happen, whether it's budgeting or spending or financial planning structure, or just you have to get buy-in from both spouses. Even more so than that, you've got the statistic that 70% of women will leave their husband’s financial advisor when they pass away. That’s probably not what the husband wanted.

Elle Martinez: Yeah, you don't want, when something that dramatic happens, to leave that partner. I'll tell you, I've gotten a lot of emails. So, I'm on social media, but of course, the nature of marriage and money, no one's going to put their husband or spouse on blast. So, I'll get these emails, and one of the most common things I get are signs of financial infidelity in a relationship. I remember one in particular was, and it happened to be a husband, that there was a bonus, the team did really well. It wasn't planned, like their regular annual bonus. And he was wondering, would it be bad for me to take that money and put it into a secret savings account? Now, he claims it would be for both of them without telling his wife because in this particular situation, his wife was the spender.

And I think we need to acknowledge that a lot of times, the money fights that couples have, that we have, isn't really about the money. There are some other issues going on. And in that case, is it a spending issue for the wife then you want to dig in, whether it's the husband or wife? Do they feel like the budget is restricted? Because in some cases, I've seen that where one couple, one spouse presented as, they're always breaking the budget, but then I look at the budget. And you know what? It is great in a perfect world where we are robots and we keep restricting, but there is like no room in the budget for things that their spouse enjoyed.

And as couples, I talked about this, yes, you are a team, and you want to work your finances together, but you have to have room in your budget for each of you for your interest. And there's so many different ways you can divvy that up, but then getting back into financial infidelity, it is that gray line because are you controlling them through the finances? And see, there's so many things that you can dig up, and it's not really about the numbers, there's something else going on in the relationship.

Casey Weade: Right. Oh, yeah, I saw the same thing with my parents. And I knew, going into this, before we got married, said, money is one of the top reasons for divorce, let's go ahead and check this box immediately. And now, we have the fastest demographic, or the highest rate of increasing divorcing demographic is baby boomers. And if you're at that point, where you're transitioning into retirement, you better knock that one out. So, you don’t have a statistic. I want to get into a couple of the topics from your book. And this is a good transition because you brought up budgeting. And in your book, you talk about how to create a budget that both spouses will love. From a high level, how do we do this?

Elle Martinez: From a high level, you definitely have to address like what is the budget? A budget is basically giving your finances the plan to get you to where you want to go. And again, defining those goals are important, but then I think a lot of people miss out is the three big buckets of any budget, basically are taking care of the essential bills, building wealth, your long-term goals, and then also enjoying now. A lot of times, when I see couples, there's a friction between building wealth for the future and enjoying life now. And that isn't necessarily a bad thing because want to find that balance, but there's a lot of tension because we give attention to this side, or we're focused on this side, and whoever's the “day-to-day financial person” is probably going to skew in one direction, which is I want to build for the future.

So, I feel like with couples, one of the best budgets just to start off with, if they hadn't been successful, or they haven't really discussed a budget, is that 50, 20, 30 not necessarily for the percentages, per se, but to get into that mindset of, okay, we have to allocate here, here, and here. How does that look? And then, the next step is, well, how have we been doing in the past? And what goes wrong? And what I've done, and I've seen other couples do is, you bring in the budget, right? You're like, okay, last month, this is what you spent money on, instead of saying, okay, you know what, you went out to eat three times a week, for example. We'll pretend it's not 2020. Did you enjoy it? Was that something that you enjoy? Or was that something, you know what, I can cut back on?

Again, I might feel, and I do feel this way, like, if you look at our budgets, I eat out less frequent, but for me, it's a social business, how I catch up with friends. I don't necessarily just eat out every day as a routine, but I make appointments, that's what I would do. So, that's reflected in the budget, okay, this is X amount per month. My husband, he loves tech. He's a software engineer, that's his thing, that's where his money at. So, there's less frequent per year, but they're like, huge purchases, but that's within our budget, but discussing that and acknowledging those differences absolutely are key.

Casey Weade: Because what's the difference? Usually, someone's going to look at the budget and go, well, you spent $50 more per week than you were supposed to last month on this item rather than asking the question about, you spent dollars on these things, did you enjoy them? Did you have a good time? And you're framing it in a positive light, and I like that. And along those lines, I read some articles out there and discussions you had around joint bank accounts, and I always find this to be a really strange thing to me, because I'll meet a couple that's been married for 50 years, and their money has been separate for 50 years. And it worked for them. And my sister-in-law just got married and combined the money. It's his and yours, it's everyone's. So, it's going to make it much easier to manage your finances if you have joint bank accounts. I just can't imagine being married to my wife and having my own money.

Elle Martinez: And everyone's different, and I want to be clear, I feel like, one, like you mentioned, it's easier, but then also another consideration is, I'm not saying a spouse pass away, but say, if you're incapacitated. For example, dealing with COVID, some people are out while they're recovering, and it's so much easier having one pool. And for us, we do a hybrid, I would say 90% of our money is joint, the day to day is checking the savings. And we do have money, but just because we have those particular separate accounts does not mean they're secret. So, I think that's the big difference. With some couples, they feel like separate. My money, I spend it the way I want to.

If we needed access to those accounts, we can get access, just because that's his funding money that he revs it up till the new graphics card or the VR system, whatever, or if I'm doing some travel trips, or whatever, that's still included in our money date, it’s like we're still looking at all the numbers together, and it does take a bit of conversation compromise. And I hate to say it, like maturity, like, this is the money that we said that you want to spend, I wouldn't spend it that way, but this is what we agreed to.

Casey Weade: Yeah, that's what my wife and I said. We also automated it. You talk about automating these things. And we just had everything go into one joint account, and then, $100 a week goes to you, $100 dollars a week goes to me. So, we have, this is ours, and then this is yours. And that's kind of yours, mine, ours philosophy, right?

Elle Martinez: Yes.

Casey Weade: And you're saying that 90% is ours, and then you'd have these other percentages that go to yours and mine. You also mentioned 50, 20, 30. Was that 50% essential, 20% long-term goals, 30% enjoyment?

Elle Martinez: Yes. And 30% usually, because you have two people splitting that with the ways that you enjoy. And to be honest, like that was the starting point for us, just kind as a ballpark figure, but as we got to see results, and we were getting excited about building this life, we kind of flipped it. And then, we're around like 45% savings right now and still enjoying today, but I think just having those buckets, kind of, we're all overwhelmed. And like you mentioned, like automation has been a huge win for us because when I'm busy with the kids or work or something comes up, our money's moving in that direction. And I feel like that's incredibly helpful, it speeds things up. Sometimes, we're our own worst enemy. And I love the fact that I know that, unless I mess things up, like X amount of money is going to joint savings, X amount of money is going to the brokerage account, and it's done. It's kind of that mental…

Casey Weade: I like the simplicity. I think it's important to generalize it in a way, we're simplifying it on the front end because one, we just have to get started, but two, that might be less intimidating for your spouse that's not into the spreadsheets and the exact numbers and the interest rates and the returns. Yeah, let's just get this started, and then we can slowly get more and more refined and integrated as a couple. And one of the ways we might do that is through your money dates that you brought up. I'm wondering, how do you structure that money date? And how often are you doing it? Is there a real structure? Maybe you're just sitting around and talking about money, and well, what do these look like in practice?

Elle Martinez: So, in general, I gave a framework, and I think naturally, with any couple, organically, it grows and it shifts to like what fits for you, but in general, like a money date for us, again, pre-COVID was we'd go out, we would literally go out, change your scenery kind of helps mentally sit down, and talk about this. And for us, once a month seems to be the best fit, just schedule wise. And we would start out with the winds, what's going well for us? It could be things going well at work, things going well, finances, family, just kind of on a positive note. And then, we would review what's been going on for the last month, what worked, what didn't. And then, we have to have the numbers, it is the money date. And you said spreadsheet, we use Google Sheets shared. So, before the money date, I'll just check, it's been updated, in case you wanted to check it out.

I've also used apps, just because I'm usually reviewing them to kind of get a visual way of where everything's going, but then, that's it. It’s down to about five minutes where we're actually looking at the numbers, it's just making sure the transfers worked out. Again, the power of automating it means we don't have to worry about every penny because every penny is already being moved. And then, life happens. So, what didn't work? If a kid gets sick, what happened there? What shifted? Make adjustments, and then for the next month, what's going on? Do we have a vacation coming up? I love eating out, finding holes in the wall places wherever we go, like where did the locals eat?

And so, if I know that's happening next month, for example, I'm absolutely cutting back on certain expenses the month before, because I really want to enjoy it. And then, of course, I remind every couple is, it's still a date, relax, enjoy it, and have time to just catch up with each other. And we're parents now of five- and nine-year-olds. So, these money dates are really a great way for us to relax, and just catch up.

Casey Weade: So, you said you text her husband and say it's been updated. So, I take it, you're the one that is managing the spreadsheets. Was he the disinterested party back in 2009, or?

Elle Martinez: It was the transformation. So, we're not maybe your typical couple. When we came in, I would say I was your traditional spender versus him being a saver. And again, these are the things that we grew up with, my mom was a single parent, had three kids. So, if you can make the payments, you could afford it. And that was kind of my mindset. And my husband grew up kind of a cash-based kind of budget, if it's not there, it's not there, you don't go into debt, you don't open a credit card, whatever. And at that time, we were college kids, broke college kids, I should add. So, we thought this would be the easiest thing in the world to have that conversation. And we immediately saw that we had to change.

And it's funny because things shifted as we got excited about where we're going, I wouldn't say either one of us is disinterested. If it was me, I was disinterested in the details at first, but now…

Casey Weade: But now, you’re the spreadsheeter.

Elle Martinez: Now, I'm the spreadsheeter. I'm a reformed spender, I call myself a doer. Like I get excited, and maybe it's like that joy of spending, but it's like spending investing, or we did a renovation of the basement, insulated it, turned it into a home office, excited about that. So, yes, it is possible. If anyone's like, how do I get my spouse on board? It is absolutely possible. And I'm sometimes now like, did you know if we do this, we can just like notch that savings rate up? And he's like, it's okay, we're okay. The kids are going to stay young for not that long. So, let's enjoy that. So, it just evolves, it shifts. And looking back, I will say, I'm glad that we've had these money dates, and maybe they're not as formal. As in my book, I laid out like, we go step by step like a checklist, it's just a conversation, but I feel like it gives us something to look forward to, like the finances are no longer the goal, it's just a tool.

Casey Weade: That's great. Yeah, I'm kind of weird like you, I get excited about the HSA contribution, the five contributions at the end of the year, I get really excited, a lot of satisfaction about making that contribution. My wife goes, where did the money go? And she'd rather have some new furniture in the house. And that would make me feel sick. Well, that contribution made me feel really good. Can you tell us about some conflict that has arisen, maybe for you, or maybe it's not you, it's somebody else, but just how have you had conflict during these money dates? Are there ways that we can avoid potential conflicts?

Elle Martinez: I would say we constantly are negotiating with each other. I'll put it kindly, personality wise, if I could create a vacation, I'm the type A person with a vacation, we're going to go ABCD here. Next day, we do this. Again, two kids can be a bit hectic. If my husband had a decision, it would be like one spot and we just stay there. Like if we go to the mountains, rent a room, rent a cabin, that's it, like we would stay there, or the beach house, we're just there. And so, I think it's our default where we're negotiating. Well, what about this? How do you do this?

Our retirement, believe it or not, has definitely shifted. If I had complete control, to be honest, I would be traveling, like when we do the full retirement, different locations, my husband, one spot. So, how we designed our retirement, and it takes time, don't feel like it should be one conversation or the big conversation because I think that's the biggest mistake couples make is they want to make the money talk, but we've negotiated where this house in Raleigh, we love the location. It's a five-minute drive downtown. We got this big yard for the kids. It's a great spot. This is our home base. And so, we are going to incorporate more travel we had before 2020, but this will always be kind of the “home base” for us. And so, I think everything's negotiable if you're both honestly, willing to hear each other out. You can usually find that third path between what you want and what your spouse wants.

Casey Weade: Simply listening from a place to learn and understand rather than listening to be right goes long ways.

Elle Martinez: Yeah, or listening to get an edge in like, okay, you said this, so I'm going to turn this to be what I wanted. And then, I acknowledge, like, we’ve lived in an incredible time where there are more options. With work, we're now all getting a crash course with remote work, how much of it in certain industries is going to stay? We'll see, but that's opened up opportunities. So, again, looking for opportunities and working as a team is absolutely important.

Casey Weade: What do you hope the real impact is, the long-term impact that you're making in the world with the work that you've done over the last decade plus, and moving forward?

Elle Martinez: Okay, that's a bit deep. Like you mentioned at the beginning, like, finances are a huge source of stress, and in some cases, one of the driving forces of divorce. If I can remove or help a couple remove that, take that off the table, so that they can address their relationship, they can pursue the goals that they want, and they could really create a life that they love together, I would be satisfied.

Casey Weade: That's good. I think there's a lot of work that needs to be done in this area. So, I truly appreciate your contributions. I've enjoyed what you've offered on the blog, and then your book, and it's made a positive impact in our lives. Before we wrap up, I'd like to ask you another question along those lines. It might be a little deep, if that's okay. What does retire with purpose mean to you?

Elle Martinez: Retire with purpose means you're not escaping anything. It means you're not like jumping ship from work. It's finding a meaningful and memorable life. And however, that looks to you that you're able to pursue it without having this fear of what's going to happen next with the finances.

Casey Weade: That's awesome. Elle, thank you for joining us. If individuals say they want to go a little bit deeper with you, of course, we'll keep the link to Couple Money in the show notes, as well as a link to your book, Jumpstart Your Marriage & Your Money: A 4-Week Guide to Building Wealth Together, and you have so generously offered to send out some autographed copies of that book. You said you're going to send us up a box of these autographed copies, and we'll send them out until they're all gone.

If you'd like to claim a copy of Elle’s book, all you have to do is write an honest review for the podcast over on iTunes, that helps us get recognized, helps us get the word out for conversations such as this. You can do that at RetireWithPurpose.com, just click on the podcast tab and right there says Leave a Review, or you can do it on your Apple device. Just go ahead leave an honest review there, and then send us an email at [email protected], that's [email protected]. And when you do that, say, “Hey, this is my username, my iTunes username. This is my review.” And we will make sure you get a copy of one of these autographed books, Jumpstart Your marriage & Your Money by Elle Martinez. Elle, thank you so much for joining us here today.

Elle Martinez: Thank you so much, Casey. I hope you have a great day.

Casey Weade: You too. Thank you.

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