449: The Stoic Path to Wealth with Darius Foroux

Casey Weade: Hey, I'm Casey Weade. Welcome to the podcast. And it is my mission here to deliver clarity and purpose and elevate meaning in your life. But if you're new to the show, I want you to know what to expect. How do we accomplish this? We accomplish this both through financial and non-financial related conversations all around that topic of retirement. Pre-retirement, retirement, we cover a litany of different topics. Every Friday, we get together with you in a short-form episode, and we talk about a trending topic.

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Today, we have with us Darius Foroux. Darius was born in Tehran, Iran during the height of the war with Iraq in 1987, moved to the Netherlands, still lives there today. And you may recognize his name due to his blog where over 30 million people have covered his articles. He is the creator of that self-titled blog. So, if you want to find Darius’s blog, just type in his name, Darius Foroux. You can also find a link in the description here today. You've probably seen if you are a Weekend Reading subscriber a lot of his articles, blog posts showing up in our weekly email because he's published over 450 articles.

This is one of my favorite blogs. If you're not following this blog, it's time to get signed up for Darius's newsletter and do that on his site. You may have also seen his articles featured in Time, NBC, The Observer, The Economist, and more. Darius also teaches online classes on wealth building and writing. It has more than 5,000 online students. He is also the host of a podcast, an amazing YouTube channel, The Darius Foroux Show: Mindset, Business, Money. He is the author of eight books, including the bestseller, Think Straight, and his newest book that was just released here a few short days ago, July 16, The Stoic Path to Wealth: Ancient Wisdom for Enduring Prosperity.

That's going to be our focus of the conversation today as we bring this to Stoicism around retirement, that retirement money mindset. And if you would like to get a free copy of that book, we partnered up with Darius to give this book away. We're going to get into as many hands as we possibly can. In order to get your free copy, if you've never written a review for the podcast, now is the time to do it. Write an honest rating and review for the podcast on iTunes, and then just shoot us a text with the keyword ‘BOOK’ to 866-482-9559. We'll send you a free copy of Darius’s book.

[INTERVIEW]

Casey Weade: With that, Darius, welcome to the show.

Darius Foroux: Thanks for having me. And thanks for your wonderful introduction. Really appreciate it.

Casey Weade: Darius, I'm super excited to have you here. I've read so much of your work over the years, and I know a bit about your background, but I've always been so intrigued by your writing. It is so well-written, and it really makes me think and so many others think around the world that makes a positive impact in their life. Now, I get to dig in a little bit deeper into that brain of yours and figure out what makes you tick. And I want to take it back to kind of how you got here today, what drove you to do what you're doing, and I want to go all the way back to your youth.

I know when you were very young, you left Iran, moved to the Netherlands, barely any possessions, and you talk about the mounting debt that your household had, the stress it caused, how you felt you were partially to blame for some of that money stress. And I'm curious how that upbringing, I always like to understand every client we work with, every person that I visit with, every conversation I have. I find that a lot of our views around money, a lot of our views around wealth, they come out of our childhood, typically between those ages of 5 to 15 years old. And I'd love to know a little bit more about how that time in your life shaped who you are today in your writing.

Darius Foroux: Yeah. I think that's true when it comes to that age. And, yeah, for me, I have this classic immigrant story. I was one and a half when my parents moved to the Netherlands. And I grew up in the Netherlands, which is in terms of mentality and culture very similar to the US because also 80% of my readers are from the US and my publisher is US based and my friends and from my understanding and feeling it's very similar. So, growing up, my parents wanted to make sure that me and my brother had a good childhood and they wanted to provide. And my father had to go back to school to get a job, etcetera.

So, those early years were really difficult for them to learn the language and learn the culture, etcetera. And it was difficult to provide financially so we always had financial struggles. And that's what I still remember from that time when friends at school would talk about getting new clothes and new things and new bikes and whatever. For me, it wasn't that simple. We were always really conscious about money. And while as a kid, I also wanted to have everything, but I couldn't. So, that type of childhood, I think, really influenced my view on money because my only desire growing up was to become wealthy so I would never have to worry about money again.

And I think that really made me financially responsible because I knew the worth of money and how important it is and what kind of impact it has on your life and also your mental well-being. Because my parents always did their best to make sure that we had a great childhood but they would also argue about money in the household. So, those types of conversations, even though as a kid your parents try to hide it from you, you feel the energy and then that's something that impact me.

Now, looking back in a positive way because in the time it was not always fun but now when I look back, I think, okay, maybe it was beneficial for me because it really motivated me, really inspired me, and then made sure that I had this drive from a very young age to go out there and earn. So, that's really where I came from. And I didn't have my first job until I was 17, when I finished high school because my parents, that's one thing they did really well, which is to always remind my brother and myself to focus on education because they experienced this firsthand in their family whenever no one went to college that they realized the key to becoming wealthy and becoming successful is to get educated.

So, they really inspired us and also told me to not get a job on the side because from the age of 12 or 13, all of my friends had paper routes or were working at supermarkets, etcetera, and my parents were always like, “No, just don't do it. It's okay. Even though we're not financially comfortable or whatever, just don't worry about it,” which sounds quite weird because we weren't well-off, but at the same time, they're saying, "Yeah, don't worry about money. Just focus on school.” So, that was a tough thing to do at times, especially if I would see my friends earning their own money. So, I had this really strong desire to do that as well. But it wasn't until I was 17 when I had my first job after high school. And that's when I really understood how important it is to have good financial habits.

Casey Weade: Well, I've heard similar stories many times over the years, and what I find with individuals that tend to grow up in an impoverished environment or where there were financial struggles or where parents were fighting over money, yeah, that often has resulted in individuals that become penny pinchers. They have financial anxiety. They never feel like they have enough. There's never this real sense of security. They're typically quite risk-averse. And then you got to this place in 2015 where you stepped away from all of that.

And you did it at a fairly young age, stepping away from this feeling probably that you had, if you're like so many others that you just never had enough or wouldn't ever have enough, and you were able to step away from a well-paying job and start something entirely new. What was that transition like? And what kind of realizations had to happen for that to work out?

Darius Foroux: Yeah. I'm glad that you brought this up about penny-pinching because in my experience, even I see this with certain family members as well, and readers who are in their 40s or 50s and 60s who are still pinching pennies while they might not have a mortgage anymore and they don't have that many financial concerns. They live a simple life. But they had this entire life of having a scarcity mindset and not feeling like they have enough. So, I think this is something that everyone from all ages can relate to. No matter how much wealth you have or how much wealth you don't have, I think this is something that a lot of financially responsible people can relate to because we feel like if we spend, we are not getting that money back again. So, it's gone forever and that's a loss.

But of course, we know that life doesn't work that way, especially if we invest, and we can let our savings or investments compound, we are still growing our wealth. But to go back to, when I made that transition. So, when I got my first job, I started making my own money and I did exactly that. I start to hold onto every penny that I earned, and I didn't want to part ways with it. In 2007, I was working at a bank when I was in college and they offered me a position as a mutual fund advisor. And this was pre-2008 where you could get a few weeks' worth of training, and then you could call yourself Mutual Funds Advisor. So, I thought I was an investing genius. So, I bought some stocks. And within the year, I lost 60% of my portfolio. It went down by 60%.

So, that feeling or that experience really put me off from investing. And between 2007 and 2015, I went to university, went to grad school, started a business with my dad, and then from that, I moved on because I wanted to work for a corporation to get experience. So, that's how I ended up in London, working for Gartner, the American IT research firm. So, I basically had this kind of standard post-university or post-college career where you try certain things out, you start to earn a living and you start to kind of narrow your focus to what you really want to do.

And for me, it wasn't until 2015 when I really discovered that the key to building wealth, which was always my goal because I never forgot that I am working and I'm doing all of these things because I want to be financially comfortable. I just didn't know how to become financially comfortable and I didn't know what I would do or what that would mean in terms of numbers. Would I need $1 million? Would I need 2 million, etcetera? So, I'm still searching for the answers. And 2015 was kind of a pivotal moment for me because I had the experience of working with my dad. I had the experience of working for a major S&P 500 company working in this hierarchy and trying to climb the corporate ladder.

And in that year, my grandmother, who was very dear to me, passed away and everything started to come together for me in my mind. Things started to click where I was thinking to myself, “Life is short but at the same time it's also long,” which is directly coming from Seneca, the Stoic philosopher who really inspired my thinking. And that meant two things to me because I said, "Well, what if I take a really long-term approach to building my career and building my wealth?” Then I can take a step back and focus on what I'm really good at and what I enjoy doing, and I can just focus on that and get better at my key skill, which is writing in my case. And I can slowly earn more as I become better at what I do. And then I can take that money to invest it in a responsible way. And if I become wealthy in 20 or 30 years, that's fine, because I know I'm on the path.” And that's really the realization that changed everything for me.

Casey Weade: You know, a lot of people want to follow a path like that. They want to follow their dreams. They want to step away from a well-paying career and do something they really love. You know, what would you say to those people that want to make that leap that they're not sure they're going to be okay? I mean, I have to imagine during this period of time, you're making a transition to being a writer of all things.

Darius Foroux: Yeah.

Casey Weade: Yeah. This is one of the most difficult places to make money, and you've done it. But that was a high-risk move.

Darius Foroux: Yeah, that was definitely a high-risk move. And yet, in terms of practical advice, I always return to Stoic philosophy because I feel like that philosophy has the answers to all modern-day problems. While it's 2,300 years old and it's from ancient Greece, it's so relevant in today's world. So, the philosophy for anyone who's not familiar with it is very practical and simple. It basically just says, "Focus on what you control and ignore everything else." If we think about the only thing that's fully within our control when it comes to our careers, it's our efforts and how much time and energy we spend on developing our skills or becoming better.

Now, the problem is that most of us don't really know what our most important and useful skills are. So, if you look at Stoic philosophy, one of the foundational principles is to always work within your natural abilities or to view the world for what it is and not for what you wish it is. So, translating that to your career, it simply means to analyze yourself and to find out what your natural abilities are, what are your natural talents? And a great way to figure that out is by asking some of the people that you've worked closely with, what they think you are really good at. And I actually did that as well.

At the time, I asked at that time my manager who I was really close with and I felt really had my best interests at heart, I asked him, "What do you think I'm really good at?" He said, "Well, I think you're really good at simplifying certain difficult problems that we often talk about within the company or just in general." And I will talk to some friends and other people that were close to me and they all said something similar or something related to simplifying difficult ideas or teaching certain concepts that are valuable in your life and career in a very simple way or in plain language.

So, I thought to myself, "Okay. I never really thought about this. Maybe I should write a book." And that's how I really came to that conclusion, to give that a try. And what I did was, as the risk-averse person that I am, I knew that I wanted to quit the corporate job, and I knew that I wanted to start a new business for myself, but I just didn't know what that business was. So, I told myself at that time I had enough savings to live on for I think like nine months or something, and I thought to myself, "Well, let me just move back in with my parents so I can really save on costs and I don't have to worry about financials, right?"

And at that time, I could still do that because I didn't have other responsibilities. And I'll give myself somewhere between six months to a year to give this writing career a try. I'll put out one book. Even if it doesn't work out, I at least have something as a legacy or something to leave behind for if I ever get kids or if I want to share it with family. So, that was my approach to give it a try and see what happens. So, I write the book and then I think to myself, "Well, no one knows about this book, so I need to find some readers." And that's when I decided to start a blog. And then I published articles.

And after three or four articles, I started to get some readers because I posted them on social media and LinkedIn and Medium.com at the time. And they start to take off. And I started getting emails from readers saying, "Wow. I can really relate to this. Thank you for writing this. It's so helpful." And at the time, I started writing about just career struggles, lessons I learned from working for a corporation, how to improve your own productivity, and a very basic career advice.

And when I saw that people really found that valuable, I thought to myself, "Okay. Now I have something that I actually love doing and also is recognized by others," because I think it's easy to think to yourself that you can provide value in a certain way but it's only true if others agree with you that it is valuable. So, that's when I got that confirmation. And in my mind, the only thing that I had to do was keep improving and keep writing so I can reach more people. So, that's how I really started.

Casey Weade: You know, I think what you did there is so powerful. Many want to do what you often say. They have an interest, but it doesn't necessarily align with the ability that they might think that they have. Maybe there's some overconfidence there in the ability, but you ensure that you had that by reaching out to mentors and seeing what others saw in you. And sometimes that can be a really scary thing. But I know one of the most powerful emails that I ever sent was sending an email out to my closest friends and loved ones and just asking them, "What do you think my superpower is? And what do you think my blind spots are?”

And then leveraging those insights to either overcome some of those blind spots while simultaneously reinvesting or doubling down in some of those abilities and interest that others saw in me. And I think you accomplished both of those things. And I love that a lot of this philosophy comes from Stoicism. I love that content, and I want to get into that with your book, The Stoic Path of Wealth, but I want to get into that, leveraging a question that one of our Weekend Reading subscribers submitted. So, for our Weekend Reading subscribers, you always have the opportunity to help influence the questions in these interviews. We reached out to you about a week prior, and then you submit your questions over to us.

And we had a great question from Steve. And I think it's one that some are going to have. Some, this whole idea of stoicism is kind of new. I know, I don't know that it was introduced to me until maybe probably 8 to 10 years ago. And for others, it may be something they've never heard of before. And Steve kind of wants to align this idea of Stoicism with this retirement phase of life. How did these things really fit together? Steve says, “How does Stoicism impact those in the distribution phase of life?” And I wanted to tee it up that way because I want to make sure we align this conversation with where our listeners are in their lives.

Darius Foroux: Yeah. That's actually a really good question. And I think the best Stoic to turn to when it comes to this topic is Seneca because during his career he was a very wealthy and successful person. He was a merchant, but he was also a politician. And in ancient Rome, being a politician was kind of the highest thing in society, where he could earn the most amount of money and respect and power. So, Seneca really had everything. He had the intellectual challenges in his career where he was an advisor to the emperor, Nero. He had the wealth and he had the respect.

Now, throughout his life, he also had many challenges because he got into some trouble with Nero as well, where Nero thought he betrayed him and Seneca was exiled. Now, before that happened, Seneca actually retired from active life. And in that time there was still a new concept ‘retirement’ because, in general, people would just work until they will die, out of necessity. But Seneca consciously decided at a little bit older age to take a step back and simply just travel Italy and enjoy his life and spend hours on long dinners and just take it really easy and write letters to one of his close friends who was still in the active life of Rome.

So, there are a few things that I take from his life, which is like we look at the wealth accumulation phase and distribution phase now. It's something that has been around for more than 2,000 years now so it's a great way to live. It's a proven way to live and totally makes sense because at some point, it's normal to take a step back and start enjoying life in a different way. But at the same time, I think it's also very important to find a way to still make a contribution.

Whether it's in one person's life or a group doesn't really matter, but what Seneca really did was he did the standard things of retirement, which is live a simple life, kind of give up your big house or kind of your certain lifestyle that you have with potentially car payments or whatever it is going to scale down and live a more simple life. Travel, which is another thing that a lot of retirees love to do. But at the same time also have some kind of an intellectual pursuit or something that challenges your mind to stay active and to think and to still be useful or “useful,” right?

Because that's one of the things that I've often heard from my readers who are retired, that I struggle with that concept of being useful in retirement because they say, "Well, I've been used to having a job all my life and running around and raising kids and being a member of society in that way. And now I struggle with taking a step back and just taking and just enjoying the fruits of my labor.” So, I feel like a lot of folks still have that passion to give back and I feel like if you don't feed that passion, you can get very frustrated that that's the thing that I've heard numerous times from readers and struggle with the concept of feeling useful.

Because I really don't think that you should think that way when you retire because you have this wealth of experience and knowledge that you can share with one other person or group. So, I think thinking in those terms of, "Oh, what's the point?” or, "What am I doing here?” or, “I should get back to work,” or whatever I feel like is just a negative thinking pattern, which is something that I think is natural because a large, let's face it, like society, there's something else that I've heard from readers saying that, like, society is primarily focused on those folks who are still in the accumulation phase or at the start of it and trying to earn more and spend more, etcetera.

And sure, that's true but that's not the only thing that matters. We also have a thirst for knowledge and experience that we want to hear from the people who came before us. So, I think if there's anything that Stoicism does really well, it's to remind us that no matter where you are in life, there's always a way that you can contribute to society. And I think that's one of the most beautiful lessons from Stoicism.

Casey Weade: Well, what I hear there are really four components that Seneca leveraged to create a beautiful retirement, a really legacy and enjoyable time in his life. And that would be giving back of following his passion, following adventure, pursuing adventure, and pursuing personal growth. And in order to do all those things, so he also had to, one of the core philosophies behind stoicism, he had to neutralize some greed that was clearly there prior to that transition. You talk about this idea of golden mean or middle way, and I think this is one of the most difficult things for retirees to identify is this idea of enough. When is enough and how do we leverage these concepts to create a proper measure of wealth for ourselves?

Darius Foroux: Yeah. I think forming the habit of contentment is one of the best things you can do just at any stage of life but I think particularly before retirement, because if you are always looking for the next thing, and if you are always, or I should say, if you are never satisfied with what you have and always looking to add something and don't think that what you have is enough, you get into this restless state of mind where you're always searching. And stoicism is really the philosophy to combat that feeling and to take a step back and to understand that life is about balance. Because if we also look at where the philosophy of stoicism comes from, it comes from the golden mean. It comes from the middle way.

Because during the time it started in ancient Greece, the two primary philosophies were cynicism and epicureanism. So, the cynics basically said that life is about enduring pain, and that's all there is. You just have to find a way to deal with it. And it's never fun. It's always there. So, it's very aligned with the word cynic, the way that we use it in today's world.

And then there you had the Epicureans who believe that, yes, life is hard and it’s about enduring things, but we should endure and numb the pain by seeking pleasure. And that means to just go out and enjoy and party and drink and just pleasures. And then the Stoics came and said, “Well, we think that life is more in the middle, where it’s about enduring hardship and enjoyment, but not giving too much weight to any of those things and being more indifferent to anything that doesn’t matter in life.”

What matters to the Stoics, it’s to live an honorable and virtuous life, to be an honest person, to have the desire to become wealthy but not greedy. It’s to live your life in the middle. And this is age-old advice, right? Like, I remember my grandmother always saying that, don’t overdo things. If you want to drink alcohol, have one drink, and that’s it. And even when it comes to good things, like love, too much is not going to work because it will smother the other person. So, even having too much of a good thing can be a negative.

And when you really listen to the common platitudes and the common truths that we all know, you will find really simple ideas that we tend to forget in today’s fast paced life, especially if we get caught up in keeping up with the Joneses and we start looking at what other people are doing and, oh, our former college friends, they are traveling the world and they’re going to these five-star hotels and they’re driving a new Porsche or whatever it is, maybe we should do that, too.

Well, if you start thinking that way, I think there there’s no way back. And if you are too far on that path, you get really stuck in that path. And fortunately, this is something that I’ve been repeating very often to my friends, family, anyone that I talk to who is interested in stoicism, healthy financial habits, retirement planning, I would assume anyone who’s listening to this, you probably have healthy financial habits, or at least you are financially responsible because otherwise, you would probably not be in this position to have wealth or to manage wealth or to grow wealth. So, to me, that already means that you are on the path. The key is to stay on the path and not get distracted by all of the shiny things.

Casey Weade: I think one of the things that can be challenging is that contradiction between pursuing wealth and being content with what you have. Especially for those that are maybe 5, 10 years out from retirement, they know they don’t have enough. So, how can they possibly be content with what they have and have peace of mind with where they’re at financially, while they simultaneously know they don’t actually have enough to step away from their work or be okay if the major tragedy happens?

Darius Foroux: Yeah, that’s definitely true, especially if you start doing the math and, in your mind, you won’t have enough. So, how can you still be content? Well, I think by just understanding that that is the nature of life. And it always sounds so simple and, in some cases, a little bit too obvious, but we really don’t control the future. We can only focus on the present. And if you are too worried about what will happen in the future and whether they will take away Social Security and what will happen to the market and what will happen to the money that I do have, you start to look at all of the things that might happen, but also might not happen. So, it’s in all cases where you are worrying or thinking about the future, according to the Stoics, is a waste of energy. It’s much better to take that time and energy to spend that on what you can do today to potentially improve your situation.

And whether you are 5 or 10 years away from retirement, it’s never too late. That’s also something that is directly coming from stoicism, where a lot of folks say, okay, I had my chances. They are too focused on the past, that train left, or I should have done that. And they start to focus too much on the past instead of thinking about what they can do. And I know that it’s a very difficult mindset shift to start thinking opportunities, especially if, in your mind, you are on the back end of your career and you are working towards retirement.

And in fact, I was reading an article in the Wall Street Journal this week about how AI has impacted the work of writers and especially copywriters. And there was one lady who said something like, my copywriting business kind of dried up over the last year because people are saying that AI is not taking away jobs. But she said, in my case, the case is true. AI is eating up my business, but fortunately, I think she was 60, she was saying, well, I’m almost retired and I feel like that’s making conclusions too early. And it sounds, it was almost like a defeated mindset because in my experience, especially when it comes to these types of intellectual professions, the more experience you have, the more value you can offer. It doesn’t mean that it’s only for young people who know how to work with AI.

So, in that case, I felt like that was not the right mindset when it came to the career and said, well, I’ll retire soon and we’ll have Social Security and some savings and paid off the mortgage, so I’ll be fine. Instead of thinking, what can I do or what else can I do to provide value? And the other side of the story that I recently saw something on TV about a nurse in the UK who was, if I’m not mistaken, something like 87 years old. And she said, “I never wanted to stop working because I love my job and I just can’t live without helping others.” And I think it’s all about mindset first, of course, circumstances, and being in that position physically as well, to do certain things when it comes to work, that requires physical things to maintain the work or be able to perform it.

But especially when it comes to getting close to retirement, I feel like thinking about it is already taking away a lot of the mindset for a lot of folks, compared to the folks who don’t think about retirement as an end and as a set date or when I’m 65 or 68 or whatever. That’s when Seneca said that you are living in the future. He said that so many people are waiting for the moment until they can finally start living that they forget that life happens today. And I think that’s such a great reminder for all of us to, no matter where we are in life, do not forget that today is all that we have. And that’s true for every single day moving forward.

Casey Weade: And we can begin to control those things. Going to Epictetus, he talked about the radical acceptance of things that one cannot control, focusing on the things that you can control. And you’ve mentioned that quite a bit here, I think, having that peace of mind that I’m going to be okay really requires you to let go of a lot of things that you can’t control. But in this world, I mean, you mentioned the Wall Street Journal, you mentioned other news, periodicals, things that you’re reading and things that you’re getting bombarded with and concerns and risks. You talk about Social Security, which is one of the biggest concerns that retirees have. What’s going to happen in Social Security? What about the next election? What about taxes? We have inflation. We have all of these constant concerns and we’re just constantly bombarded by it.

Now, if you go back to the days of a lot of these ancient philosophers, they didn’t have that level of bombardment regarding things that they couldn’t control. So, it’s probably easier for them to let go of what they couldn’t control because they didn’t have that constant bombardment about all of the things that are going to harm them in the future. How do we gain that focus around what we can control when we’re constantly bombarded by all of these things?

Darius Foroux: Yeah, I think there’s two ways to look at that. They didn’t have the technology, but they did have illnesses that could wipe out entire cities, right? They had political instability where it could just happen overnight that an emperor was overturned or was thrown out and, all of a sudden, there was military reign or people started to die because they lived in a certain area, whatever, or they were targeted. So, they did live with a lot of physical threats. And in the same way, we live with those mental threats as well. So, the way that I look at it, it’s the same. I would never say that, oh, just because we have certain anxieties about something that’s very far away from us, like politics or like the election, it doesn’t make it real because the feeling is very real. I could argue almost in a similar way as the threats of ancient life on your overall health and ability to live basically. So, they also didn’t have modern healthcare, etc.

Now, what can we do to kind of mitigate that? And like you already said, letting go is the most important thing because if I look at my family, they’re also watching the news every single day and getting worked up about certain things that are happening in the country. So, I don’t think we can ever completely tune it out. And it’s the same way that I look at the stock market because my philosophy is not that you should look away or that you should kind of ignore what is going on because one of the philosophies of investing is to simply invest in the stock market throughout your career and never open your brokerage account or never look at your account, see what it’s doing, or never look at the market either.

Now, if I look at stoicism, what can I learn from that? Well, the Stoics basically said, don’t look away. Accept anything that is happening in life and don’t react. That’s the key difference. A Stoic can look at the news and can experience and feel all of the tensions in the world and struggles and potential challenges on the horizon, but compared to a non-Stoic, a Stoic looks at that and is not moved by it mentally. They would acknowledge the threat or the problem, but remind to themselves that their mental peace is the most important thing in life, to protect that mental peace and mental tranquility over everything else.

Now, ultimately, there are certain things that we can do from a practical point of view. If we feel like our expenses are too high, we can look at ways to cut those expenses or we can look at ways that we could potentially earn more. But when it comes to politics or the city that you live in might have changed over the years and cost of living has gone up exponentially, which has happened to a lot of cities in America and also in the Netherlands, you could think about moving, but it’s not that simple, right? Because when we live in a city, we have our doctor there, we have our plumber, we have our just connections, apart from our friends and family, that make life easier. So, it’s very difficult to give that up and live somewhere else.

So, one thing that I’ve seen a lot with a lot of people is that they’re constantly struggling with the idea to do something, whether it’s moving somewhere else or moving countries even. And they constantly think about this idea, while deep down, they know that they’re never going to do it. They know that they would rather stay where they are and kind of deal with those challenges as they come because they appreciate their network and friends and family more than giving everything up and starting new. So, acceptance is something that is really important when you feel like you have some inner turmoil. And I feel like everyone has inner turmoil, whether it’s related to your career, your lifestyle, your relationships, how happy you are. We all have inner turmoil.

The only way to deal with that is through acceptance and, unfortunately, there is no other way. There’s no easy answer, right? There’s no five things you could do or go on a vacation or start exercising. Those types of things don’t work. The only thing that we can do to be more calm and go through life without inner conflict about these major topics is to accept the things that we don’t control, and also that we don’t want to change. And as soon as you kind of accept certain things, and I can give you an example, because as I was saying, I think this is true for all ages.

So, growing up, another thing that I always wanted to do when I was wealthy was to live in a warm country, because growing up, I always thought, oh man, I hate the winter like everyone else. I never hear anyone who loves the rain and the cold for a longer period. After the summer, most folks are kind of looking forward to when it cools down again in the Netherlands, but the winter lasts for quite a long time. I don’t know how that’s, where you live, but towards the end of the winter, you just can’t wait until you see some more sunshine. So, my one of my goals was to go in and move to warm country, probably Spain.

So, about two years ago, I finally felt like I have the financial means and I’m financially comfortable and I have a job that I’m not tied to one place. So, I made that move. I packed up my car, drove to Spain. And I realized that you get used to everything. After three or four months, I got used to the palm trees and the weather, and then it was just me and my habits. And I did meet my partner there. So, that’s something that’s very great, something very positive that happened. But at the same time, I also learned that life is not only about the weather, something that, again, everyone knows, but we have to figure it out by ourselves. We have to experience it.

And I realize, okay, I just prefer to live in my hometown, close to my friends and family, where I know everybody. And that’s something that I really appreciate and I feel really comfortable with. And I should give up that inner turmoil of, okay, what if I would move in? I also thought about, maybe I’ll move to America. Most of my readers are there. I might go to California, where it’s great weather. And this type of inner turmoil takes away a lot of your energy so you can spend that energy on other things. And that’s how I dealt with this as well, because I feel like no matter where you are, everyone has something that they are thinking about. But deep down, they already have the answer. They just need to accept it.

Casey Weade: Well, I see steps here, and kind of the steps that we walk our coaching clients through and that’s mainly focused around self-awareness, gaining that self-awareness, learning what we can control, what we can’t control, accepting that in the end. And you also talked a little bit about Seneca. And this one stood out to me, Seneca talking about gaining freedom from practicing non-attachment to one’s wealth. And that stood out to me because it’s called personal finance. It’s called personal finance for a reason. It’s because it’s very personal. It’s immensely personal and it’s inherently emotional. So, if it’s so immensely personal, if it’s so inherently emotional, how do we actually create a non-attachment to our wealth?

Darius Foroux: Yeah, non-attachment to wealth, I think, is the most important thing to compounding your money in the stock market or any type of investment that you choose because most of the responsible ways of investing will have long-term time frames. And when we are too involved and when we are too attached to the money that we set aside for investing, we risk becoming nervous when something happens that we’re not comfortable with, like a market correction or a bear market or a recession. So, you can avoid that by immediately applying non-attachment to the money that you invest.

As soon as you set aside a certain amount of money for investing, the most Stoic thing you can do is to say goodbye to that money mentally and, literally, tell yourself goodbye, I’m not going to see you for 10 years or 15 years, maybe even longer. And by practicing that exercise, this mental exercise, you create some distance between you and your money. And that helps you to sleep better at night because you can only say that in a genuine way by investing the money that you won’t miss, because if you take all of your savings and put it in an investment vehicle, you might need it within a year, or maybe you want to make a big purchase or go for a big vacation or pay for your kid’s college or buy a new house. If you take all your money and invest it, you won’t feel comfortable with it. So, you really are forced by this mental exercise to think about the amount of money that you won’t miss, but is important for you to compound.

So, this is what I really love about this exercise because it is the number one thing that helped me to become a consistent investor over the past seven or eight years because before that, I always struggled with investing in the stock market because of that experience that I had and, later on, when I finally felt like I had enough confidence to invest, I was never sure about how much money I should invest and how often I should invest and all of the complex questions that come to play, like what assets and all of these difficult questions that, of course, a financial advisor can help you with. But at the same time, when you’re starting out, at least for me, I always want to know what my options are, etc. So, I struggled with those things until I decided to part ways mentally with that piece of money that I want to invest in. That really helped me to practice non-attachment.

Casey Weade: I think where this really shows up in the planning that we do in our framework, our proprietary framework we use for the families we work with, I talk about this all the time, is kind of segmentation or assigning specific purposes to those assets, especially for retirees. I mean, if you’re younger, you assign this purpose that you’re going to need it in 20 years or 30 years. But when you’re in retirement, it can feel like you need all of those assets today. Yeah, and this is why I think the segmentation or purpose-based approach or bucket approach is just so powerful. If you know you don’t need that money for 10 years and that bucket is assigned for that purpose and it’s down 10% to 20%, you’re able to let go of that attachment because you don’t need it today. And I think that’s what’s happening there. And I think that’s one of the things that’s really helpful for retirees when you’ve been looking at the same bucket of money your whole life, and now, you go, okay, well, it’s best if I start splitting this up. And I think that helps us with that.

I know we don’t have time to go through all of the concepts in your book. You talk about four different edges that investors can have, the Stoic edge, information edge, quant edge, size edge, and how they can build those edges for themself. One of those being the Stoic edge, and then within the steps to building that Stoic edge, you talk about a concept. And this doesn’t necessarily pertain to the way that you laid it out in the book. But I wanted to see what you had to say about these different concepts and kind of how they might all tie together, how you view them personally.

You talk about return on time, ROT. So, you talk about return on time in this third principle of building the Stoic edge, let your results compound over time. When I think about ROT, I think about all the other ROs, return on time, return on investment, return on life. And I just want to hear you talk about these different concepts, how you think about return on investment and contrasting those to ROL or ROT.

Darius Foroux: Yeah. So, how I think about return on investment and return on time is in the following way. So, let’s say you’ve built some substantial wealth over your lifetime, you can spend a lot of time thinking about how you could potentially squeeze out additional percent here and there when it comes to your capital. That’s going to require a lot of your time and your energy. Now, that’s great. So, you’ll earn a little bit more money. You will earn a little bit more on your investment. But if you compare that to the amount of time that you miss out, the question is, is that really worth it? And I think for most of us, the answer is no.

One of the stories that I love when it comes to investing is the story of Peter Lynch. Everybody knows him as one of the most successful fund managers of all time. One of the things that they forget is that he stepped away at still a relatively young age for that role because at some point in his career, he realized that he missed so many of his kids’ birthdays and recitals and family events, etc. When he consciously made the decision to step away and, of course, it’s easy to say because he made a lot of money, but the principle remains, which is money is important, but at the same time, return on time, return on life is equally important. So, you want to prioritize both things.

And fortunately, in our world, we can do that. We can have an investing strategy that works. We can get a good return on our money, while at the same time protecting our own mental energy and mental sanity by making sure that we have a feeling that we are enjoying our lives. So, that’s one of the things that I always think about way before retirement because I feel like if I live my life that way, it’ll be easy to simply just extrapolate so I don’t have to make an adjustment later on in my life where, from now, I already am prioritizing my return on time, where I’m not so obsessed with trying to earn a little bit more when it comes to my investments.

Casey Weade: I think this can be a really difficult concept for those transitioning to retirement when all you’ve been focused on is accumulation, return on investment, getting the best return that you can get every year so that someday, you can get to this place called retirement and then you can actually enjoy it. That means you have to step away from that focus on ROI and focus on ROT, focus on ROL, which comes from, maybe that means taking less risk. You don’t get the same returns, but you have more confidence. Or maybe it means you have a little higher cost because you hired an advisor or you hired a planner or money manager, and you have a little bit more time on your hands, all creating a little bit more return on life in that next phase for you.

And you see this all the time with retirees that are running around from institution, institution, trying to get an extra half a point or 1% per year and their CD returns, or they’re trying to get an extra 1% out of their advisor and they’re shopping around and how much time that they’re losing out on really enjoying where they’re at. And that’s what this is all about. That’s why the podcast is called Retire with Purpose. We want people to focus on ROL and ROT, and let go of some of that ROI. Not that it’s not important, especially for those that have enough that are listening, their focus needs to shift. Their focus has to be on life and purpose and meaning because at the end of the day, at the end of your life, that’s all you ever had. And I wanted to wrap up with this because I think it ties in quite well. You’re on the Retire with Purpose podcast. What does retire with purpose mean to you?

Darius Foroux: Yeah. So, this is what I was thinking as you were talking. So, when you look back on life, I don’t think you’ll think about buying your car or even certain career accomplishments. It’s just a collection of your memories. That’s all that life is to me, especially when you look back, and I feel like retiring with purpose means that you emphasize that over everything else to make sure that you keep making those memories and experience life, and it sounds a little bit corny, but in a fullest way because often, people kind of relate that to spending money, like all these vacations or whatnot. But I think it’s really just being in the present and not being involved with the past, nor the future, and experiencing every moment to the fullest that you can. And if you can accomplish that, I feel like that really leads to a life well-lived.

Casey Weade: Well, what I love about that is I think when people think about what’s my purpose or do I have a purpose, they’re always focused on the future, and purpose is happening right here. Purpose is happening while you and I are having this conversation. It’s what you do today that’s going to create that level of purpose and meaning in your life. And I think if you’re going down this path and you want to become a better investor or you just want to enjoy a little bit more of what you have today and maybe even let go of some of these attachments that you have in wealth, I think this book can even help you make that transition into retirement while you change some of these attachments. We want to get this book in your hands.

So, again, to get a free copy of The Stoic Path to Wealth: Ancient Wisdom for Enduring Prosperity, all you have to do is write an honest rating and review over on iTunes for the podcast, then shoot us a text, and we’re going to send you a link. We’re going to send you a link. You submit your iTunes username. We’ll verify it, and then we’ll send you a free copy of the book. So, to do that, just text the keyword “book,” B-O-O-K, to 866-482-9559. Darius, it’s been a true pleasure. I look forward to doing it again.

Darius Foroux: Yeah, thanks, Casey. I really appreciate it. And thanks for having me on.