Kary oberbrunner Kary oberbrunner
Podcast 228

228: Why Retirement is not the Goal with Kary Overbrunner

Today, I’m speaking with Kary Oberbrunner. Kary is the CEO of Igniting Souls Publishing Agency. He’s also an author, coach, and international speaker who helps people clarify who they are, why they’re here, and where they’re going so they can become souls on fire, experience unhackability, and share their message with the world.

In the past twenty years, he’s ignited over one million people with his content and trained over 250,000 Authors, Coaches, Speakers, and Entrepreneurs.

In my previous conversations with Kary, we’ve talked about his books, Day Job to Dream Job and Unhackable. However, this conversation is going to be a little bit different. I recently found a video he posted in 2018 called “Why is the Goal NOT Retirement?” and I knew that I needed to talk to him about it.

In this episode, Kary and I dig into his unique views of true retirement. We talk about the link between our jobs and our health, and the power of living a life with purpose and freedom at any age.

In this podcast interview, you’ll learn:
  • Why Kary believes that to retire is to no longer be of use–and inevitably leads to a faster decline.
  • How a lack of progress and an inability to meet goals leads to depression.
  • How we can create value for other individuals–and why this isn’t always about money.
  • How Kary moved forward and built the life he always wanted while working a job he hated.
  • The difference between good pain and stupid pain.
  • Kary’s definition of true retirement.
Inspiring Quote
  • "You can't love your life and hate your job." - Kary Oberbrunner
  • "We were not put on earth to be consumers. We were put on Earth to be co-creators." - Kary Oberbrunner
Interview Resources
Offer valid in the 50 United States and the District of Columbia, to first-time requestors. During the offer period, receive one (1) in-stock book per request. Limit (1) book per week per household. Limit three (3) books total each calendar year, between January 1 and December 31. Offer valid while supplies last. Howard Bailey Financial, Inc. reserves the right to cancel, terminate or modify this offer at any time. Void where restricted or otherwise prohibited.
Read the Transcript

Casey Weade: Kary, welcome back to the podcast once again.

Kary Oberbrunner: Hey. It is great to be here. This is quite the topic. And you're right, there have been some haters around this topic because I think it just evokes such a response because it's contrary and a lot of people think, "Oh, the goal is to retire,” and it's not.

Casey Weade: Yeah. Well, our first discussion was Day Job to Dream Job. That was our focus. And then our second discussion was around Unhackable. So, we really focused on two completely different books and now we're focusing on actually a Facebook post that you had posted out there into the Facebook world back in June of 2018. It was actually June 18, 2018, and I had to do some digging to find this video but then I hit on it and I actually found this video prior to our last recording and I thought, "Oh my gosh, I have to talk about this.” However, we didn't have enough room because I knew this is a bigger topic. This isn’t something that we just cover in five minutes. It's something that I really wanted to spend some time going deep with you on. So, the post was titled Why Is the Goal NOT Retirement? So, Kary, why is the goal not retirement?

Kary Oberbrunner: I'll tell you what. When you think of the word retire, it actually means to put out to pasture or no longer of use. So, if we say we're going to retire this airplane, we essentially take it off the fleet, we put it in a yard, and we say, "That no longer has use.” Now, think about that. Why would anyone say that their goal is no longer to be useful? That's absolutely nuts. You and I have a coach, Dan Sullivan, who's 77. He's at his top of his earning in terms of profit. He's at the top of his influence. He's at the top of his impact. He's growing. When COVID shut down his business, just like everybody else, he said, "We're going to pivot. We're going to find a way.” He's the leader on Zoom. You see what I’m saying? Like, he's saying what are the new technologies and how can I not only be participating, how can I be leading in them? So, I just want to encourage people today. My favorite book is the Bible. Retirement is not in scripture. It's not a concept. You basically want to live every day as a soul on fire. And when you retire without purpose, I love your book, Job Optional, here's the thing, Casey, your lifespan starts to decline. If you retire and you no longer have use, your body says, “Okay. I guess we're done.” I don't know if you agree with that or disagree with that.

Casey Weade: No. A hundred percent but I don't think everybody does. I mean, this is why our tagline for not just our podcast but the firm is Retire With Purpose because I think purpose and meaning should have everything to do with the way that you actually manage your wealth, let alone the way that you manage your life. This is exactly what we talk about all the time on radio and TV. But it's not all good stuff coming back at us. I feel like we're putting all this good energy out into the world about purpose and meaning and how important this topic is and that we need to rethink our traditional concept of retirement that we don't just hit 65, we hop on Medicare, turn on Social Security, get our pension, and now we just sit back, relax on the porch, and do what my grandfather did, which was sit down and watch The Simpsons for hours upon hours throughout the day. Like, that wasn't the most healthy way that he spent his retirement years and that's probably why he didn't live real long when he stepped into retirement because I don't think that's the way we should be thinking about retirement anymore for that reason and many other numerous reasons. But sometimes we have some negative feedback. I've had the feedback where someone has said, "You make it sound like retirement is a bad thing. You make it sound like retirees, they don't have purpose, they don't have meaning, they don't have any reason to go on living.” That is not what we're saying.

Going back to that Facebook post, I really enjoyed reading into the many, many comments that you had. And if I may read one of those here, I think we should address it. In the comments, one gentleman said, “So, you're wealthy enough to retire at 35 and you're knocking those who have to work until they're 65 and who wish, all broken and tired, to be able to enjoy some years of relaxation and comfort. Obviously, this guy wasn't doing roofing or masonry,” and it kind of continues from there. We've received that same feedback. Why do you think this message offends people at times?

Kary Oberbrunner: I'll tell you what, this is in conjunction with another comment that I make. You can't love your life and hate your job. They're similar. In other words, I actually did do landscaping. I was a bus driver. I did do siding. Back in Indiana when I went to school near where you live, Casey, back when I was training to be a pastor, man, I hustled. I wasn't just sitting by from a rich family cashing the checks. I hustled. But here's what I realized, I'm a happier person when I do what I love. So, let's talk about the quality of life. Let's talk about the fact that your grandfather was created to be a creator and not a consumer. So, when we start saying, “I've made it. Now, it's my position to consume. I consume food, I consume shows, I consume whatever, vacations. I consume, consume, consume.” We think that's the life and yet all the research shows that those people are not happy. We were not put on earth to be consumers. We were put on Earth to be co-creators. Think about it. Not that I'm going to go total faith on here but I'm a former pastor so I can share a little bit.

Casey Weade: You've got permission.

Kary Oberbrunner: I got permission. But what I want people to realize is that the word abracadabra, we start saying it as kids, and it means, “I create as I speak.” So, young kids are fascinated with this abracadabra this, abracadabra that. It's put into our psyche. God's first acts, in the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth and we were created in his image. You and I have been created to create. So, this means that at age 70, at age 90, at age 110, we still can have creative energy and it might look different. You might not be climbing up skyscrapers and creating things like that but I'm talking about creating legacies. I'm talking about creating mentees. When I'm really old, I want to be giving people the gift of belief who are younger than me and saying, "You can change the world. I believe in you.” Why? Because I'm literally creating leaders. So, you don't need to think of creating as just with your hands but I think the reason why that guy got all mad with the Facebook post and you're right, it must have hit a vibe because 37,000 watches. That's pretty crazy. Normally, I do a video and it's like 100, maybe 1,000. Thirty-seven thousand people got fired up. But I think what that guy is saying is, "Oh, well, that's nice. Kary retired at 35.” I'll tell you what I did, Casey. I said I'm going to stop collecting a paycheck at 35. I said I'm going to stop watching the clock and so it ends every day and it goes by so slow. Now, I'm doing what I love. And L.P. Jacks says that, "A master in the art of living draws no sharp distinction between work and play, labor and leisure, mind and body, education and recreation. He or she simply pursues their vision of excellence and leaves others to determine whether they're working or playing. To themselves, they always appear to be doing both.” That's the goal. The goal is to say, "Is Casey working or playing? I can’t tell. He's so engaged. He's so on fire,” as opposed to the guy or lady who says, “Crap, it's Sunday. I'm going to go through depression. I'm going to feel…” Look at all the research. Highest rate of death, 9 a.m. Monday morning. Okay. Highest rate of suicide for males on Sunday night thinking about having to go back to work again. Like we say our jobs don't affect us but if we're doing what we don't love, it massively affects our health.

Casey Weade: Well, I think it's the definition of retirement that is still getting misconstrued by this gentleman and many others. You said you retired at 35. Now, does that mean you financially retired at 35? Does that mean that Kary was worth tens of millions of dollars and he never had to work another day in his life?

Kary Oberbrunner: No. And I think if I actually did, I think I wouldn't be igniting souls. I think I would be selfish. I just think that if I inherited a whole sum of money, I would either get bored really quick or I would just be self-absorbed. What I stopped doing at the age of 35 was collecting a paycheck where I was a pastor and saying, “I have to be here to put food on the table. I have to be here to pay the bills.” I have to, have to, have to. Think about how many have-tos I just said. When you talk about your life as have-tos instead of get-to, words matter. And have-to is a burden and get-to is bliss. Is your life a burden or is it bliss? And it's not how your fantasy football league team is doing. That's bliss. It's creating meaning in other people. Let's talk about Victor Frankl for a quick moment. Victor Frankl because this is all about purpose, right? Man’s Search for Meaning, if people don't know the story, concentration camp victim, he's a psychologist but he's in the concentration camp. And talk about retirement, the people that said this is all there is, the pain, the punishment, the abuse of the German soldiers, this is it, those people died. Kind of like the retirement mindset, “This is all there is. This is all that I have left. This is the best it's going to get.”

For somebody who didn't have a purpose beyond the current situation, they died. Victor Frankl's strategy to keep his fellow colleagues alive was to get them to talk about their future. “What are you going to do when you get out?” “Oh, I'm going to go walk my daughter down the aisle.” “What are you going to do when you get out?” “Oh, I'm going to build this business. I'm going to start my piano teaching again.” The people who saw beyond the day-to-day were the ones who lived. The people who said this is all there is, they died.

Casey Weade: Yeah. And that was another little reference that got you in a little bit of trouble there with the Facebook community, and I think it was, as you said, it's just this mindset. It's your mindset of despair. If you're in retirement and you feel like you're trapped, if you're in retirement and you have this mindset that this is it, it's not going to get any better, I'm not going to continue to have a bigger life and add more value out in the world, if you have this concentration camp type of mentality where you're stuck in this area and there's nothing but negativity, then, yes, it is somewhat similar to that concentration camp. But just in the way the mind works, it's the mindset that you're talking about, not that someone's actually physically placed you in a concentration camp in retirement.

Kary Oberbrunner: No, not at all. And I hear a lot of people, for example, take two of our clients and I'm in the publishing industry, so I help people write, publish, market their books, turn it into 18 streams of income. I literally have clients in their 80s then I have other clients in their 60s who are on a webinar who say, "Oh my gosh, I so need to join your program,” but here's what they say, “I'm on a fixed income.” So, one dude's 80 and crashing it and creating new streams of income and speaking, my mom, for example, wrote her first book. She turned 70 just a few days ago while other people are in their 60s or even 50s and t9hey're saying, "Oh, your program costs a fee. I'm on a fixed income.” Basically, what they've said is, “I need to conserve. I live in a world where it's scarce, resources are limited, and then they project that to the rest of the world.” Think about it. They’re now living at 50s or early 60s, they might have 40 more years but they're saying that their strategy for life now is to retreat, to pull back, to conserve. That is the recipe for death. I mean, that will bring your death faster than anything is to say I'm now retreating, I'm holding back, and that's not life. Everything that you see, grass, trees, animals, everything is either growing or dying. And so, when you take on the mindset that, “I'm in a fixed income, I can't do,” Dan Sullivan says that, "One of the major components for life is novelty.” Think about that.

Older people are tempted to say, "Been there. Done that. Nothing is new. The best was in the past. The best was those decades ago.” When you live that way, as in like looking at your past, you have nothing for the new future. The people that I know in retirement or out of retirement are creating new futures. Those are the ones who are fully alive.

Casey Weade: Well, at the very end of your video, and I think we need to bring this up sooner, this should have been how you open up the video. It should have been how we opened up the podcast. You said, "Freedom plus purpose equals true retirement.” That's retirement, right? Your definition, the goal should not be retirement. It should be true retirement, and that is freedom plus purpose. So, can you break those two things down for us? What is freedom? How do you define freedom? How do you define purpose?

Kary Oberbrunner: Yes. We're all born with three questions. Who am I? Why am I here? Where am I going? It centers on identity, purpose, and direction. And I think about it when you retire, most people lose their identity. Interesting, most people say, "Well, I used to be a professor. Well, I used to be a CEO. Well, I used to be…” So, a lot of people, when they retire, they lose their identity then they lose their purpose why they're here. In fact, people say like in retirement, by the way, I used to be a pastor, I used to hang out with a lot of 70 and 80-year-olds. So, I know the older mindset but it's like, "Hey, you're Jim. What do you do?” “Oh, I used to be this.” In other words, used to, not here's what my future is, here's what my present is, here's what my past was. And so, their significance is tied to the past. Therefore, when they lose their job, they lose their identity, they lose their purpose, they lose their direction. That's the recipe for slavery. That's the recipe for no growth. Freedom plus purpose equals retirement. A freedom is a life of love-tos. So, here's what I would ask people to do, Casey. I've been on this kick lately where people get a piece of paper. They write, "Love to...,” and then they write, "Get to...” and then they write, "Have to…” and then they write, "Hate to...” So, love to, get to, have to, hate to. And whatever age you are, start writing out that chart. And what a lot of people realize if they’re super honest, a lot of their lives are hate-to or have-to. Very few people are loved-to or get-to. That is not freedom when you're living on this side.

In fact, that's why Shawshank Redemption is such a tight metaphor for me because those are the conditions for prison. I have to be in here, I have to be behind bars, I hate to be stuck here. All the psychologists say that the happiest people in life are those that see progress to their goals. When you and I don't see progress or when we don't have goals, either of those things, that's where we become depressed people. You were born to achieve. It says go out and have dominion over the Earth, and when you say, “I don't have anything, I don't create anything,” you're literally losing your humanity. So, I would encourage people to do that chart, and if there's a lot of things about hate-to or have-to, start saying, “Who not how.” You can buy other people's time. So, this is where for the person who's retired who absolutely hates to do all this stuff, they might have the resources where they can hire out those we call this Who Not How. Our friend, Dan Sullivan, wrote that book but check it out. They say, "Well, I can't do that because I'm on a fixed income.” What if you made your love-to even in your retirement your financial ability? What if your love-to is people paid you for? You see what I’m saying? Very few people are in their love-to because they're doing all this and then they're not earning money because they're not using this time over here for what they love to do. So, this is where it's a total mindset shift.

Casey Weade: And wealth is usually what people think of as freedom. So, does wealth factor into this equation at all in your mind, or is it an add-on? How do you see that working in this equation?

Kary Oberbrunner: You and I both know people that are very wealthy but they're scared to use it. Is this true? I mean, people have gathered wealth but yet their mindset is still impoverished. You can have a poor mindset and have a lot of money and live a life of poverty. Wealth to me is generosity. Wealth is freedom. Money is a tool. Money creates options. It is amazing to be able to say, "Oh, my gosh, that person needs surgery,” in Haiti, which my wife and I’ve had this happen many times because we support people there. I just can write a check. Now, this guy can walk. I mean, surgeries there are like $1,300 and a dude can now walk. And that creates joy. I think that the people that are most concerned about money are often the people that are poor and I'm not saying they're poor. I'm saying they're poor here. You see what I'm saying? They're poor here where I know tons of generous wealthy people but I know generous people that don't have a lot of money. That's a life of wealth. So, wealth to me is an attitude. Wealth to me is a mindset. It's not what your bank account says.

Casey Weade: We released an episode on a Tim Ferriss blog a while back and it was called Single Ply and it was a discussion around toilet paper but it largely circled around these things that we get comfort, we fall into by default when it comes to finances. We just default into being cheap or frugal. Do you want to be frugal by default or frugal by choice? And you have to start figuring out why you're spending the way that you are. I think we should go deeper into this part of the discussion because, as you said, you hit the nail on the head. It gets difficult to get out of that groove of saving and pinching your pennies and just that scarcity mindset as you transition into retirement, I work with so many individuals that have plenty of money. They have plenty of financial freedom. They could go and they could delegate this, delegate that. They could get rid of that whole hate list, that whole have-to list. If they really wanted to and spend all their time in those love-tos however for the last 50 years, 60 years, they've been training themselves that they just don't have enough. We have a question from Andy. Andy, thanks for your question and it's along those lines. Andy asked, he said, “So, how do we get past the concern that we need to conserve?” What would you say to that?

Kary Oberbrunner: Yeah. Here's the thing. If you are passionate about creating value for other people, you'll never be poor. So, think about it, I call this show up, filled up. This is one of my big things. It’s actually the topic of my next book. But I have a thermos here and there's some water in here but most people go around in like empty. So, they go up to people in relationships and subconsciously they say, "Fill me, fill me with affirmation, fill me with money, fill me with clients, fill me with profit, fill me, fill me, fill me, fill me.” We all feel that. That's when we feel like we're being sold. The other type of person, here it is. This is better. It's clear. The other type of person is oozing gratitude, abundance, value. And when these people show up and just spill all kinds of value that is so foreign and so rare that other people say, "This person needs to be in my life.” And this is true about Casey, any time I'm around Casey, he makes deposits in me, not withdrawals. And so, when I think of Casey, he's a man that I want to refer. He's a man that I want to send people to. He's a person that I want to talk about his book because he's a giver. When you show up as a plus in a relationship instead of a minus, you don't have to worry. Does this make sense?

Casey Weade: We need to seek those areas of value where we create value for other individuals.

Kary Oberbrunner: And that's a love-to. Your love-tos create value. Stop focusing so much on your hate-tos and have-tos, then you'll have the bandwidth to create them.

Casey Weade: I love that. So, I really want to spend some time on this particular topic where you have gotten to these have-tos and I think this relates to another question we have for a Facebook audience, Sean. Sean, thanks for your question, is saying, "What is the best way to change from a have-to mindset to a get-to mindset regarding a current job that you feel trapped in? Is that even possible?” Now, I have some thoughts on that and we do this for our kids, and I have to share this. So, our kids were sent home because another kid in their class had COVID. And I got home from work that day, opened the door, and my son sat in the doorway and he said, “I don't get to go to school this week. I don't get to go to school next week either.” And I was just so excited. I went, “Yes, he gets it.” He's not saying, “I don't have to go to school.” He's saying, “I don't get to go to school.” And we do this just constantly in our family. There's no such thing as have-to. It’s get to do this, get to that, and I think that just naturally shifts something in your mind where even the things that seemingly are bad, are negative, the have-tos, you can trick yourself into thinking that they are good things and you can learn to embrace those things.

Kary Oberbrunner: Yes. So, the gentleman's name is Sean?

Casey Weade: Yes.

Kary Oberbrunner: So, Sean, I was where you were 100%. Man, I was in a job for 12 years that I felt like this is not who I was created to be. I had some bad years in there that were fear-based. Here's what I did to survive. I created this side hustle because what I said is that my boss doesn't own me. He owns me for this time. And when I was at my job, I chose to be a rock star. This is where I think it's unfair because now I'm a boss, I understand it's unfair for your employee to come and hate their job. I'd rather someone say, “I'm out of here. It's not for me.” I think that's more pure and more honest. So, when you are on the clock, crush it, be a rock star because you can make a difference. You will feel more fulfilled. But then, unlike most people who then go home and cope because of the pain of their day job and watch Netflix and eat Doritos and then watch more Netflix and then eat more Doritos or play for 25 hours of video games straight or watch porn or drink the substance or pop the pills, that's what most of the world does. They anesthetize the pain because it hurts too much to be in a job that they hate. Here's the challenge that I will encourage you to do. Do what Andy Dufresne did in Shawshank. He was a prisoner but he was a rock star and he showed up, filled up at his job, but here's what he did. In his downtime, he got a little hammer and at the side of his cell, he began to dig every night.

When you forge the discipline while you're doing your side hustle of passion and clarity and purpose and hustle, you start making yourself a machine. You build yourself into this amazing person that, guess what, suddenly you become so strong that you say, “I don't need my day job anymore.” See, most people have zero self-belief. Why? Because they're watching Netflix and Doritos all the time. They have no courage, they have no passion, they have no fire. And so, yeah, they're going to get chewed up when they go out in the marketplace. Casey, you, me, we hustled. We did the daily discipline so that we were so strong when the time came, we made that pivot. But it's not by ripping your boss off. It's not by seeing how much you can blow off the job. It's by being an amazing worker and then in your downtime, owning everything. I say it like this, just to wrap up. You can lie in bed, blame, excuses, and denial, “It's my boss's fault. This isn't the job I want. I really love my job, even though I hate it.” Blame, excuses, and denial, or you can put your ore in the water and move forward. Ownership, accountability, and responsibility. You start taking ownership, accountability, and responsibility of your life, you are going to make yourself irresistible and you're going to have so much self-confidence that you can pivot into the job you love.

Casey Weade: So, I'm going to play devil's advocate here a little bit on the have-to stuff or some of the harder stuff. During your video you said when you're only 80% alive, you're 20% dead and that most people settle for that. I love my life 80% of it, 20% I just don't really enjoy. Well, you say 80% alive, 20% dead. And at the same time, though, isn't that hard stuff, some of those have-tos, isn't that 20% what really gives you a reward at the end of the day? It's like working out, right? You have to feel, I don't like the pain, I don't like the pain, however, that's what makes sitting on the couch and having a little ice cream at the end of the day that much more rewarding, isn't it? You see this with entrepreneurs, right? Entrepreneurs delegate everything away because we're taught to delegate, delegate, delegate. We get rid of everything and now we feel empty. We're only doing all of the good stuff every day. It's all just roses and it's just amazing. But it's not. I think there's some reward in the hard stuff, some reward in the have-tos. And I think we all want those naturally, subconsciously, we do want those but we set this goal of getting rid of all of them.

Kary Oberbrunner: Yeah. There's good pain and there's stupid pain. So, the good pain is what you're saying where I just had a phone call before I jumped on and someone told me, searing truth, and it hurt so bad. But he was spot on, man. He was so spot on. His name is Skip and he loved me enough to tell me the truth. And now I got to look in the mirror and deal with it. That's the good pain. The stupid pain is to say, "Well, Casey, my water heater went out,” and I know nothing about water heaters but, by golly, I'm going to watch seven hours of YouTube and I'm going to go get that water heater and I'm going to go get some wrenches and figure this thing out. Why? Because it's tough. You know, that’s stupid pain. I'm not called to be a mechanic or electrician or water heater dude. I'm just doing something painful just because of pain doesn't prove to be acceptable. I'm all for pain when it's, "Crud, there are gaps in my life,” and I got to close those gaps relationally, spiritually, physically, absolutely. I stepped on the scale a few days ago and I'm like, "You know what, I've totally been stress-eating. I've been stressing because there's a lot of big things going on in our business, and I said I'm not happy with my health. And again, I'm not some big dude but I know that I have not been eating because I'm hungry. I've been eating because I'm stressed. There's a big difference. And when I do that too long, I get a weak mind and I don't show up on this podcast with an edge and I don't show up in my business, in my marriage with an edge because I'm disappointed in myself. So, that was a tough pain, Casey, to say, "Crud, I'm going to have to change some habits,” and you bet it's been tough but it's been good.

Casey Weade: Good. Well, I want to go ahead and continue with this line of questioning where how do we tell the difference specifically? You talk about, well, this plumber, you've got to fix your water heater or HVAC, whatever it is, and you're not good at it but you're going to put yourself through the pain when you could have delegated it and found something else or maybe in a job, maybe Sean’s in a position where he just doesn't really like everything about the job. There's 10%, 5% that he just really hates doing every single day but he does like it for the most part or he feels like, "You know what, I'll just go ahead and say, ‘Hey, you know what, I get to do this. I’ll convince myself of it. I'll get over that extra 5%, 10%, 15%.’” How do you tell the difference between the things that you should learn to love or those things that you really need to eliminate from your life? I think it's kind of difficult to tell the difference.

Kary Oberbrunner: Here's the example with Sean. Maybe Sean has to just buckle up and do that 10% but maybe he lacks courage in standing up for himself and he should go to his boss and say, "Hey, boss, I'm going to create so much value in my other 90% that I am supposed to do that I'm going to earn so much income for the business that the 10% that's killing me that I hate, I'm going to create so much value that you're going to be able to hire someone.”

Casey Weade: I want my employees to do that. So, my whole team is going to listen to this. I've got at least 30 of them that are going to listen to this, hopefully, 50, 60 of them over the coming years, and I want them to come to me and say that.

Kary Oberbrunner: Wouldn’t that be good?

Casey Weade: Wouldn't that be awesome?

Kary Oberbrunner: I mean, imagine if Casey had that. Yeah.

Casey Weade: You know, and there are employees that are listening. Don't we want them to listen and come to us and say, "Hey, I hate this thing. I never want to do this again?” Awesome. Yeah. If I can eliminate that, that means you'll be with me the rest of your life. Perfect.

Kary Oberbrunner: Absolutely. But we don't think that way. We think, “Oh.” So, part of the pain might be Sean looking in the mirror and say, “I got to have a fierce conversation,” and I'm scared of rejection and my boss may reject me. And you know what? This causes me to go into a deep wound that I had with my parents about rejection. See what I'm saying? That's the type of pain. That's good pain to say, “Crud, what Sean's really scared of is being rejected in his life. And now he's got to face that giant and go have that fierce conversation.” That's the beautiful thing, not, “Oh, crud. I'll just do the 10% that I hate in life.” That's not smart pain.

Casey Weade: And if you have a boss that isn't willing to have that conversation, then it probably is time to find a new job. So, let's wrap it up with our last question we have from Tom, who is a Weekend Reading subscriber, sent us over an email. Tom says this, and I think this is really relevant for your average retiree, “Once you start having health issues, how do you keep full steam ahead? I'm 65, and in the last year, I've developed issues with one of my legs. My idea of becoming a Nordic walking instructor is now possibly slipping by. How do I go about looking for something else?”

Kary Oberbrunner: Yeah. So, I'm not a doctor but what I will say is that we often don't think of other options. For example, swimming might be amazing for him because there's little resistance on his leg and therefore he can build up that leg while swimming and then go back to doing walking, which he loves. My point is this. We always have these, "The doctor said this,” or, “I only have so much left to live,” or, "The age of life longevity is this.” All I'm saying is that what if that's not true? What if that's not true? We as humans have had so many examples where there's this legend about this Olympian who lived in this far-off place where he wanted to do shot put and he kept hearing about how far that the people who did shot put and he's like, "Man, I can't even get close to that mark.” So, he kept working and he kept working and he kept working, and finally, he got to the final mark of a shotput. Only when he went to compete at the Olympics, he blew it out of the water and got gold. Why? Because the shot put he was training with was three pounds heavier. My point is this. We expand to the level of our minds. You're a person who has problems with their leg. Who says that they have problems? You give them something like the doctor says they have problems. David Goggins, you ever read that book? Can't Hurt Me. Did you read the book?

My point is this like we all have a mental barrier then we need to break that. So, maybe the dude isn't supposed to walk but you and I have totally heard of people like Nick Vujicic, Helen Keller, all the people in the world who have these mental barriers that said, "Oh, we can't run the four-minute mile, Roger Bannister. We can't do this. We can't do that. We can't earn in this type of market.” Casey, what are you talking about? You're crazy. And then we explode past that. So, I want to challenge your readers. Is the barrier in his mind? Or is it in reality? Because maybe he's just supposed to push through this.

Casey Weade: Well, maybe it isn't reality, and for some, they just don't have the ability to do what they once were able to do. Maybe you had a dream of like I did, being a professional golfer, and then you realize, "Well, the average guy doesn't make enough to support a family so this is probably not going to work unless I'm this good,” and I just didn't have the natural talent or the drive for that matter.

Kary Oberbrunner: And your dream changed but now, looking back, you probably have more fulfillment.

Casey Weade: This is way better than playing golf 24/7. I wouldn't want to do anything else. This is much more fulfilling

Kary Oberbrunner: You’re changing your legacy, their family concept of wealth. We can tell your own fire, Casey. We can tell that you're in the right spot.

Casey Weade: But I wasn't always like that. I mean, I could end up like Tom here, where maybe all of a sudden this isn't a viable future. This is what I think I'm supposed to do for the rest of my life. This is my purpose. And then something happens that makes it no longer possible. That can be really difficult to overcome and then shift and find what that next thing is.

Kary Oberbrunner: COVID has jacked up so many people and yet some people sit on the sideline and say, "That's my story. That's my story. COVID jacked me up and for the next 30 years that's going to be my story.” Other people say, COVID shut me down, I'm pivoting, and coming back stronger. And you and I hang with a lot of people in that world. So, the outside circumstances doesn't need to be your reality. It's truly you need to control what you can control, which is yourself, your mind, your brain, and make a pivot.

Casey Weade: Pivot, the word of the year for 2020 but it's true and I think it really applies as you step into retirement, too.

Kary Oberbrunner: I mean, yeah, Facebook ads. Look, we build our whole business on Facebook ads. Facebook shut down our ad account, December 19. I could have sat there for four months and then like, “I'm just going to wait. I'm just going to blame Facebook.” You got to go out and create new value for people.

Casey Weade: Yeah. And that just means moving forward. So, let's end with freedom plus purpose equals true retirement. And, Kary, how can someone get back in touch with you? Maybe they're ready to write a book for the first time in retirement. That's their pivot. Maybe they want to get a hold of your book, Unhackable. Maybe they want to go back and watch your Facebook page and just consume all the awesome fulfilling content that you have out there.

Kary Oberbrunner: Yeah. Just reach out. Unhackable book is the way to go for the most recent book. And if someone here wants to write, publish, and market their book, we love to do that. And so that's EthosCollective.vip and we love to help that person.

Casey Weade: Well, we'll make sure we throw all the links to get back to you in the show notes. Kary, thanks so much for taking the time to elaborate on this really important topic. I really enjoyed our time together.

Kary Oberbrunner: Thanks for having me. Take care, Casey,

Casey Weade: Until next time.