128: The Future of Real Estate Investing with Jason Hartman

[INTERVIEW]

Casey Weade: Jason, welcome to the podcast.

Jason Hartman: Thanks Casey. Great to be here.

Casey Weade: Well, it's awesome to have our first real estate expert here on the show, among many other things that you do. I'm really looking forward to diving into not just what's going on with real estate and how it pertains to retirement, but also what's going on right now. I'm interviewing you right now at the beginning of April, 2020. There's a lot going on out there in the market.

Jason Hartman: There’s a lot going on in the world.

Casey Weade: A lot going on out there and Coronavirus. I see you're practicing a little social distancing yourself.

Jason Hartman: Oh yeah, absolutely. This is a good time to be a loner with OCD. I hate to say that. It's a really crazy time in history. I never thought I'd live through anything like this. You probably didn't either. Probably nobody in your audience did, unless they were alive in 1918 during the Spanish Flu. I think this will create profound, profound changes in the world that will last an entire generation. I'm not talking about the virus itself. I do think this will be a very bad month and it'll peak toward the end of this month, and by middle of May we're going to be back on track in terms of things, but the memory of it will last a generation.

The impact on the economy and the way we do things and our behavior and how that impacts the economy, how it impacts real estate is going to be profoundly significant. There are a lot of things that people need to do to reposition their portfolio, to really reposition their thinking about their investments, about their retirement, about where they live, how they live. This is a big deal. I don't want to understate it.

When I say that, by the way, I don't say that in the sense that I'm panicking. I think, largely, the reaction from the Federal Reserve and the government and other central banks and other governments around the world, in some ways I think their reaction is much bigger than the problem. At the same time, I do think there are profound lasting effects that will be with us and we need to adapt to them.

There are many silver linings in the cloud, by the way. There are many good things that are already coming out of this and will continue to come out of it. Happy to dive into these. There's so much to talk about.

Casey Weade: Oh, there is. Talk about things that will change us forever. I may never touch my face again for a while.

Jason Hartman: If you can help it, it's a habit everybody has. I'm amazed to learn that we all touch our face, like, 20 times an hour. I had no idea I was doing that.

Casey Weade: I had no idea. Now look, I'll probably be healthier. We’ll be a healthier population for many years.

Jason Hartman: We will. We're all germaphobes now.

Casey Weade: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, there's going to be some profound changes. I want to get into the impact of the real estate market. For some of those that are listening that aren't sure who Jason is, I would like to talk about your real estate evolution, where you're at today. You didn't just start by running out and buying a hundred properties.

Jason Hartman: No.

Casey Weade: You gave this a start and it evolved over time. I'm wondering what that evolution has looked like for you.

Jason Hartman: I'll make this really short because I think there's a lot of topical stuff and important things that you want to jump into. Basically, I started my investing in real estate at age 20. I was in my first year of college. I was selling real estate part-time. I got my real estate license at age 19. A client of mine that I had sold a few investment properties to didn't really love one of the properties he bought from me and he asked me to sell it for him. I said to him, “Jim, I don't want to sell it for you. I want to buy it from you.” That was my first rental property at age 20. From there I've just been investing ever since.

I love income property. I think it's the most historically proven asset class in the world. Interestingly, I think it will be the best-performing asset class throughout this whole entire Coronavirus pandemic. We'll see if I'm right about that. I think possibly the second best will be gold. I'm not a goldbug, by the way. I do own some but I've just never been a goldbug. I think it's a one-dimensional asset class. There's obviously the fear trade, and that's something that'll happen. Interestingly, as much as I don't love Wall Street either, it's starting to look like there will be some good stock buys out there. Every problem creates opportunities.

Casey, you've probably heard it or maybe some of your listeners have but… This has nothing to do with the Wuhan virus or the China virus, as some people are calling it. The Chinese in their language, many years ago I learned that they have a symbol for crisis, which is the same as the symbol for opportunity. Literally translated, it means “crisis is an opportunity riding the dangerous wind.” It's kind of an interesting translation, right? Many opportunities are coming out of this crisis already and many more will come. I hope we can talk about that today and help your listeners just reposition their portfolios and do things right.

Casey Weade: Yeah. I love looking at this in a positive light. I think when we get into these unprecedented times in our lives it can create a lot of panic. If we really look for the opportunity, there are opportunities abound today.

Jason Hartman: No question.

Casey Weade: Let's go there. Where do you see the biggest opportunities in the real estate market today?

Jason Hartman: Like I've said, I think this is a generational shift. I think it's a big deal. As soon as the pandemic part of this blows over and the quarantines end, this will probably be by early May, maybe mid-May, something like that. As soon as that happens, we are going to start to see a mass migration out of high-density living environments. Remember, when we talk about high density, we're not just talking about someone living in a high-rise apartment building or high-rise condo. That's one component of it.

When you come out of your home, say you don't touch the elevator button, say you ride in the elevator alone and say the elevator is disinfected all the time, right? Say your building is very clean and that's all great. What happens when you get out of your house? On the street scene, at the coffee shop, at shopping environments and eventually when they come back— and it's going to take a while— restaurants, bars, movie theaters, concerts, things like that, plays, Broadway, everything like that? When that eventually comes back, maybe with people sitting in every other seat, who knows what this will be? It's going to be a different world; it really is.

We’ve got to think about density and social distancing. This is the new thing that everybody is going to be thinking about. I think we are going to see a huge hit to real estate markets like New York City, downtown LA or any part of LA, where I grew up, that is highly dense. Obviously, the Bay area in San Francisco, Seattle, Portland, San Diego, Miami, Boston, Washington D.C, downtown Chicago. I think that people are really going to make an escape from these types of environments and there's going to be a mass migration toward suburban living.

When you look around the world, Casey, America is very unique in the concept of suburbia. That is a uniquely American concept. Around the world… I've been to 87 countries. I was born in Europe. It's kind of weird now that I have zero travel plans. I don't think that's happened in 20 years for me. I usually go to Europe a couple of times a year, spend maybe a month there every summer or so. European cities, Asian cities, cities around the world are dense. They're densely populated. This is a big change.

In terms of the U.S. real estate market, I think we are going to see something that I predicted maybe 8 to 10 years ago that I call the rise of suburbia. Now, the reason I predicted it back then had nothing to do with pandemic viruses. I wasn't thinking of that. What I was thinking of at the time I made that prediction is the autonomous vehicle and the self-driving car. I think that is going to lead to the rise of suburbia. Because location… If you look at real estate throughout history, I mean even back to the time that we were living in caves, real estate has always been valued on three basic concepts that's kind of a cliché: location, location and location. That's what makes high-density cities so expensive to live in. New York City is expensive because of density and demand and high-paying jobs.

Well, guess what? A lot of us have now realized that in terms of high-paying jobs and location and also universities and the tuitions they charge, that as that old story, ‘The Emperor has No Clothes’, the emperor has no clothes. What I mean by that is that now people are realizing, thankfully, that they can work remotely. A lot of people did before, but now they really get it. People are adapting. Necessity is the mother of invention, as the old saying goes. People are pretty adaptable. They're pretty good at adapting, and so are free market companies. Capitalism is super adaptive, more than any other system.

The late economist, Joseph Schumpeter years ago coined the term ‘creative destruction’. We're seeing a creative destruction happening just in the past month of universities that have adapted and are telling everybody, “Go learn online.” Grade school, “Go learn online. Stay at home.” The home is becoming the center of the universe. As this happens, the company is telling people to work at home. People are getting better at using remote technology, like we're using right now. There are all sorts of new innovations that are being pushed forward faster and faster. Lots of companies, interestingly, are retooling their plants. Alcohol distilleries are making hand sanitizer. I think GM and GE are both making ventilators. I think both of them, actually. Maybe I'm confusing that. All sorts of companies that made clothing are now making face masks. The world is just radically changing and adapting very quickly.

Some of this adaptation in terms of the real estate market are that we are moving more and more toward a frictionless real estate market where people are more and more willing to do things virtually. When I started in the business I'm in now, that people can find out more about it at www.jasonhartman.com or on my podcast, the Creating Wealth Show. I got into this business, this angle on real estate back in 2004. 16 years ago. Back then, the idea of people buying properties around the country, buying properties they had never seen in person or investing remotely was sort of a radical idea. A lot of people did it. My business was very successful as it launched back in 2004, but now it's become widely accepted and much more friction free. It's going to make it easier for investors because now renters are more willing to rent properties virtually. They're more willing to sign docs using online electronic signing platforms. Just a lot of stuff is becoming much easier and much more friction free, which is beautiful for investors.

The rise of suburbia, a big, big mega trend in real estate. We've been recommending people invest in suburban real estate for 16 years. We've never liked high-density markets. I think that's just naturally going to be a very good thing for us.

Casey Weade: What's this timeline look like? If we find ourselves here today, do we go ahead and say, “Okay, suburbia is going to be a great opportunity. Let's go ahead and get ahead of it”? Are we buying into suburbia at a good time today? Or are there going to be better opportunities in the future as we see, say, potentially recession go on, we see individuals that are potentially losing their jobs and going back to the ’08 period of time? Are people going to lose their homes? Are people going to be turning their homes over to the banks, the banks taking over? How are the opportunities going to evolve? I'm talking to people right now that are saying, “I would like to get into the real estate market right now. I think there's going to be a lot of opportunities if we just sit and wait for those opportunities to arise.” How do you see this evolving over time?

Jason Hartman: Well, the right answer is I don't know. None of us know. We're in uncharted territory. We have never seen this before. Look, for all the people who think they can outwit the stock market or the real estate market or whatever, Mr. Market, has a certain amount of wisdom that no one person has. If you don't believe that, just look at the powers that be who have much more information than we do, and those would be the central banks. The Federal Reserve and the government have vastly more information than any person listening, including me or you or anybody. They have more information and they can't predict the cycle. They control part of it also, and they don't know. Nobody really knows.

Casey Weade: That makes me think about your valuation discussion. You say, “Well, there is no such thing as the U.S. real estate market.” Does that mean today there's great opportunities and tomorrow there'll be great opportunities, and we just have to look for them?

Jason Hartman: Yeah. That's why I always try to look at the macroeconomic angle on things. When you look at macro, generally speaking, you can predict macro trends. Can I predict day by day or next month? No. I just know for sure that there is going to be a mass migration out of high-density living environments to lower-density living environments. I can say that with certainty, and I think everyone listening probably believes that too.

Will there be a recession? We're already in a recession. Will it be ugly? God, yes. This is mind-boggling what's going on. The cover of the Economist Magazine has a picture of the Earth from outer space with a sign that says “Closed” on it. You can't shut down the global economy and expect not to create a recession or a depression. This is going to be just a crazy time. The difference is that this did not happen because of ridiculous lending standards. The banks have been really conservative, at least in real estate financing, coming out of the great recession. This is not a long-term problem.

Now, I want to couch that in this. I think every economy on earth is pretty much built on a house of cards. It's all smoke and mirrors. Knowing that that's the environment we're playing in, that every economy is built on this house of cards, if you will. That's just every economy. The question we have to ask ourselves is, compared to what? I love these idiots that are out there predicting the collapse of America. Well, compared to what?

Seriously, the U.S. has the biggest economy in the world. It has the biggest military in the world. It has the reserve currency of the world. Guess what else? It has the biggest brand name in the world. Everybody wants to come to America. Bash it all you want. Say that the dollar is fiat money and it's not backed by anything. You're wrong. The dollar is backed by aircraft carriers and missiles. When you get down to it, at the end of the day, that's how the U.S. will continue to maintain reserve currency status, by the ability to inflict force and project power. It's ugly but it's the way of the world. The U.S. is in a much better position than other countries, dramatically better. The U.S. real estate market will definitely experience hardship, but so will everybody else.

By the way, just as an aside, one of the really good things that is coming out of this that just makes me feel good, because this is a virus that doesn't discriminate. I mean, it does in terms of it affects older people more harshly. It affects men more harshly. Coronavirus kills men dramatically more than it kills women, by the way. That's not very well-publicized probably for some silly political correctness reason. It does discriminate a little bit but it doesn't really discriminate between borders. One of the silver linings that's coming out of this is I think this will lead to much greater global cooperation between nations. We are realizing as the human race that we've got to work together here. No country can go it alone here. That said, America still has some tremendous advantages.

In terms of your prior question— sorry about the long answer— it's kind of a timing the market question, and I don't believe you can time the market. The problem is if one tries to sit out and say, “Okay, the deals are going to get better.” You might be right. You might be right. I don't know. Certainly, when you look at the three different kinds of real estate markets in the world: linear, cyclical and hybrid markets. Those cyclical markets, those are the markets where if you're looking at a graph, they have tremendous, glorious highs and really ugly lows. They thrive and then they crash and burn. Those are markets that get all the publicity around the world. They are places like the West Coast of the U.S., San Diego, Los Angeles, San Francisco, Seattle, Vancouver Canada. The West Coast out of the U.S. even. South Florida, Miami. The expensive Northeastern markets, Washington D.C, New York, Boston, markets like that. Around the world, they’re markets like Dubai, Paris, London, Hong Kong.

These are markets that have really high prices. They appreciate radically in the good times and they crash and burn in the bad times. Those markets are going to suffer greatly. When you hear someone talk about the real estate market, that's what they're talking about. When you hear these soundbites on the news they're not talking about Atlanta, Ocala, Florida, Memphis, Tennessee, Jacksonville, Florida. They're not talking about Houston or Dallas. They're not talking about Little Rock, Arkansas. They're not talking about some-

Casey Weade: Or Gary, Indiana and Maryville. It’s like-

Jason Hartman: Yeah. Well, Gary, Indiana, you might not want to talk about that one at all.

Casey Weade: I just thought you had a lot of properties in Northern Indiana there.

Jason Hartman: Yeah, but Gary is not one of the markets we’d really recommend. If you're a real bottom feeder type of landlord, sure, you can make money in those types of places. Same with Detroit. We've never recommended Detroit. Same kind of reason, but there are some exceptions. People, look, you can make money in any area of real estate. I'm just saying that my plan is I think people should buy good quality properties in good markets and they should buy necessity housing. When times get hard, people need shelter. We all now know through this pandemic that the home is the center of the universe. Not an office building, not a retail center. The home. That's where everybody's been told to go and stay, at home.

Guess what? People now realize, if they've got a roommate and they live in a two-bedroom place, you know what? Someone's got to move. “My company told me I’ve got to work at home. I need that spare bedroom now.” Maybe my company gave me an extra 200-300 bucks a month to work at home as an allowance. I've got to set up a home office, so someone's got to move. Guess what just happened? We just doubled the demand for housing. Double.

Now, another funny thing, a lot of people have talked about all these couples that are at home quarantined with nothing to do, and that there might be a Coronavirus baby boom in nine months. If that's true, if people are making love then they've got to get a bigger house. We've increased the demand for housing. If both of those people in that couple had been told to work at home and the kids had been told to study at home, and there's a couple and two kids, think about how much more housing you need now. More space. What if people are fighting at home and they're arguing and they're just at each other's throats? They realize they never spent this much time with their significant other. “I can't stand you. After this is over I'm getting out.” The divorce rate goes up. Double the demand for housing. Necessity housing, the demand is going to increase dramatically. Necessity housing in suburban markets, the demand is going to increase-

Casey Weade: Then I just want to get a little deeper into that, clarify what we're talking about. I know I've got families that are looking at flipping homes or they already do flip homes. Then they've got long-term rentals, we've got short-term rentals, we've got vacation rentals.

Jason Hartman: I can talk about the short-term. I've made some good predictions on that too.

Casey Weade: Where in the market is that opportunity, long-term, short-term, vacation rentals, apartment buildings? Can we drill down a little bit there?

Jason Hartman: Sure. First off, I think at least this year, of course, and maybe next year, the global economy is going to get smaller. It is going to shrink. Whether that means a technical recession or not, I don't know. I mean, certainly this quarter or next quarter we have a recession, there's no question about that. Anybody who says different, they're looking at the world through rose-colored glasses. They're smoking something because they're just wrong. We're having a recession. The recession could end pretty quickly, the technical recession, but many small businesses will go out of business. The economy will be smaller. That means that as real estate investors, we want to catch people moving down and provide housing to them. The discretionary income of going on vacation, that market's going to get a lot smaller. It's going to shrink.

Now, in terms of the short-term rental or Airbnb market, people will still take vacations and a lot of their options are going to evaporate either by choice or by economic reality. Examples: many cruise lines will go out of business. By the way, as an aside— and I'm not being political here, I'm just being accurate— I’ve got to hand it to the Trump administration. When the cruise lines came to them and said, “We need a bailout,” their response was, “Look, domesticate your companies in the U.S., hire U.S. workers, follow U.S. labor laws and pay into the system and then we'll consider a bailout. You've been avoiding taxes or evading taxes for years by domesticating elsewhere and getting all the big American consumer market as your customers. You have the best of both worlds. That's a scam. You want a bailout? Pay into the system.” We'll see how that works out. Maybe they'll domesticate in the U.S. now, like Carnival Cruise Line, the biggest one in the world that owns many other cruise lines. Maybe they'll work out some kind of bailout.

Look, the cruise business will definitely shrink. No question. The long-distance vacation market will definitely shrink. Even if it all comes back, a lot less people will want to fly. They're just going to be concerned about it. You get into an aluminum tube in the air and you have no social distancing opportunity, so it's risky. There will be other viruses after this one.

When you can provide a short-term rental property that people can drive to, and it's in a suburban type of setting, not a high-rise condo, not requiring flying. People will still take vacations. Because the number of vacation options has compressed and it has shrunken, people… We have one short-term rental market that we offer, St. Augustine, Florida, and it's perfect. Our clients that have those short-term rental properties there are doing pretty well. They've had a cancellation here or there. Interestingly, some of the bookings are changing in character where they have a fewer number of bookings but longer bookings because people want to escape the higher density cities. For example, someone coming to St. Augustine, Florida for a short-term rental vacation would come possibly from a higher density area of Atlanta or Orlando. They can easily drive to that or many other areas as well. If you've got a short-term rental property in a high-rise or in any high-density type of environment, especially one that requires people to usually fly to it rather than drive to it, that's a problem. That's not going to do well.

Casey Weade: Yeah. I'm glad you said that. We've got a rental property just outside of Traverse City in Michigan, vacation rental.

Jason Hartman: Yeah. That's probably pretty good.

Casey Weade: A short-term vacation rental, people drive there. We're continuing to stay booked the entire year. I really like to hear that for that reason, and I also think it's a neat opportunity for retirees when they're looking for a second home. That can present a way to have that second home and not have it really eat too much into your expenses. Maybe even provide additional revenue. It sounds like-

Jason Hartman: I think you’re right. I think that's good. Your short-term rental in Traverse City, by the way, the other thing I'd say about that is the high, high end of the short-term rental market will also suffer because people are going to be more conservative. I think the mindset is going to be toward a bit of a simpler existence after this. I think people are going to be more grateful for what they have. That's a good thing in a lot of ways. I think the extravagance and the super high end, ultra luxury short-term rentals are also going to suffer, even if you could drive to them.

Casey Weade: Sure. Yeah. That's one of the opportunities is short-term vacation rentals you can drive to. Then it sounds like your main business and what you really like is these suburban areas where you’ve got family housing. Not high end, maybe it's lower end, but you're buying a larger portfolio of these homes to generate revenue. Is that what I'm hearing?

Jason Hartman: Absolutely. Just as an aside, look, I think the short-term rental thing is fine, given everything I said, but that's not our main thing. Remember, vacation is always optional. In tough economic times, people just aren't going to vacation or not as much, so that market will contract. The core strategy is buy inexpensive bread-and-butter necessity housing as long-term rentals in good linear markets.

Now, what do I mean by linear? Earlier I explained cyclical. Remember that graph we talked about? Just helping people visualize. There's a graph. The cyclical market is up and then it's down. It has glorious highs and ugly lows. Those are all the West Coast of the U.S., all the trophy cities around the world that I mentioned. Then the linear market are those boring markets you don't hear about in the news. Little Rock, Arkansas, Memphis, Atlanta, Ocala, Florida, Jacksonville, Florida, and many others around the country that you could see at www.jasonhartman.com.

Those properties make sense from day one from a cash flow perspective. They're going to sail through this pretty darn well, I think. Now, interestingly, I think this is going to lead to some obviously new government programs. There's a program that you probably know about called Section 8, which is a rental housing assistance program for people that's been around for many, many years. Decades. When I was growing up my mom had some Section 8 rentals. That's where the government pays either part or all of the rent to the landlord.

I think we're going to see a dramatic expansion in rental assistance. I think we may actually see a nationwide rental assistance program that a lot of people are eligible for. I think the economy is going to become much more government-centered and much more socialist, whether we like it or not. It’s the way it's going.

Casey Weade: If someone's listening in and they’re saying, “That makes sense to me. I'd like to get into the rental market,” and maybe they want to jump on this. You've been through a couple of different recessions in this market.

Jason Hartman: Not just a couple. A few. I’ve been around a while.

Casey Weade: I've seen people lose a lot of money in real estate. I've seen people make a lot of mistakes. If they're going to go down this road, as we close here, what are some of the biggest things they need to look out for? Especially those close to retirement or in retirement, if they want to go this route, they want to take advantage of an opportunity, where have you seen people go wrong? What should they be watching out for?

Jason Hartman: The simplest thing I can say is, number one, I’ve got a great free video for your listeners. It's just on the front page of my website, www.jasonhartman.com. It's 27 minutes long. It's totally free. If you simply watch that one video… If there's nothing else you do to learn about real estate investing, just watch that one simple video that teaches people how to analyze a real estate deal. It's totally free. www.jasonhartman.com. Just watch that one 27-minute video and it will really, really help.

Barring that, even faster, as a rule of thumb, look at good rent-to-value ratios, or otherwise known as RV ratios. If you can get somewhere in the neighborhood of 1% of the value of the property every month, you're going to do pretty well. What that means is that if you're looking at a $100,000 property and that'll rent for close to $1,000 a month, it's very hard to get hurt on that deal. I mean, yes, other things can go wrong. Life is complicated, of course. There's no foolproof investment. But you're going to do pretty well, if you get 1% per month because you're going to be able to hold onto that property during bad times and you're going to thrive during good times.

The place people get hurt is they buy these crazy properties in California or some of these cyclical market cities. The properties are too expensive and the rent-to-value ratios never worked. I have something I call the Ten Commandments of Successful Investing. Commandment number five is “thou shalt not gamble.” Thou shalt not gamble. I just believe in being a conservative, prudent investor. When I say not gamble, I mean that the property must make sense the day you buy it, or you don't buy it. What does making sense mean? It means it has a good rent-to-value ratio and everything else explained in the 27-minute video that's free on my website.

Rent-to-value ratio, if you just get that, that's a good safeguard. People do these crazy properties that are, “Oh, it's a $500,000 property and it rents for $2,500 a month.” Don't do those deals like that. They are very risky. In the short-term rental market, people make mistakes all the time because they buy these highfaluting properties and they think they can rent them all as a short-term rental. Well, guess what? That market's going to contract, just like we talked about a few minutes ago.

You'll never lose if you have the more basic necessity product in the marketplace. That will always be in demand. Do people like champagne and caviar? Sure, but it's not necessary to survive. What's necessary to survive is meat and potatoes. That's the kind of rental property you should be thinking about.

Casey Weade: That's awesome Jason. I know this is just a crazy time for you right now and you've got to run. As we come to a close, I'm just going to ask one more final question, if I may.

Jason Hartman: Sure. Yeah.

Casey Weade: That is, if someone's listening in and they could just remember one thing from this conversation, what do you want them to know?

Jason Hartman: That housing has universal demand. Everybody has three basic needs: food, clothing, and shelter. We're in the shelter business, provide basic shelter to people. It's the most historically proven asset class in the entire world. I think it's going to perform pretty darn well through this whole pandemic we're going through. Just focus on the fundamentals.

I guess I'll say maybe four things that are maybe more general. I said this on my podcast. Number one, stay calm. As everyone is panicking around you, keep your head straight. Stay calm. Don't listen to the news day by day. Step back, look at the big picture and think, “Look it, this is going to be an entirely different situation in six weeks.” A month and a half from now, the news will be entirely different. Hopefully, it's going to be a lot better. I think it will be. In six weeks this whole thing's going to change, so calm down. Relax. This is not the end of the world. We will get through this.

Number two, keep good counsel. Be prudent. Listen to prudent people, like your show, like my show. Just make sense of things. Keep good counsel. Don't go off on every harebrained idea you hear.

Number three, keep your eye on the ball. Focus. Focus on the big picture. You had a game plan probably, hopefully, for your financial life. Stick to it. It's still going to work. Yes, the world is changing in some ways. Don't be a speculator. Stay focused on prudent investments that make sense the day you buy them.

Number four, don't be paralyzed. Take action. Paralysis is always going to hurt you. Take action. Keep following your plan and keep going. Be a little more careful, be a little more cautious— that would be sensible— but keep your big plan going. Keep doing all the right things that you've planned to do. You've got to take some action during this crisis.

[END OF INTERVIEW]

Casey Weade: Great words of wisdom, Jason. I believe action is always key during times of crisis. To find the opportunity, we have to take action. We had to have a very timely conversation here. However, I would love to have the opportunity to have you on again. I think real estate can play a valuable role in a retiree’s portfolio, and I’d like to have a pointed conversation about that in the future. Hope we get that chance. Thanks for joining us.

Jason Hartman: Absolutely, Casey. Thank you. Happy investing to you and your listeners. If I come back on in six weeks we will be having an entirely different conversation, I think, but we'll see.

Casey Weade: I look forward to it.

Jason Hartman: Best wishes to everybody. Wash your hands and stay home and be safe.

Casey Weade: That's right. Thanks Jason. Take care.

Jason Hartman: Thank you.

[END]